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2015 Federal TrialtranscripttranscriptJuror Qualification and For-Cause Rulings - Day 5 - 2015 Federal TrialThe court granted for-cause challenges to Jurors 42 and 43 based on their death-penalty views, while deferring decisions on Jurors 38 and 54 for transcript review.
Aloke ChakravartyWilliam D. WeinrebDavid I. BruckJudy ClarkeMiriam ConradGeorge A. O'Toole Jr.THE COURTMR. WEINREBMS. CLARKEMR. BRUCKMR. CHAKRAVARTYMS. CONRADjury_selection
2015 Federal Trial/Day 5/January 16, 2015
10 pages·0 witnesses·1,430 lines
Individual voir dire addressed impartiality, hardship, and capital sentencing views alongside disputes over questioning and public access. The court excused Jurors 42 and 43 for cause over defense opposition and deferred decisions on Jurors 38 and 54 for transcript review.
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THE COURT: Okay. Some -- are there further agreed-on matters?

MR. WEINREB: No, your Honor.

THE COURT: So we've dealt with those. I think the first then non-agreed would be No. 35.

MR. WEINREB: That's correct. We have no motion.

MS. CLARKE: There is no motion.

THE COURT: 35 is in.

Number 37 was excused. Next, 38.

MS. CLARKE: It's a defense motion.

MR. BRUCK: It is a defense motion. We move that he be disqualified on two different grounds, and it may save time to take them up one at a time. Observing the Court's general practice so far, he seems to clearly come under the hardship. He is a self-employed computer person. He said on his questionnaire he would have no income. He would not be able to pay his bills. And on -- when questioned more about that, he said it would be distracting or could well be distracting during the course of the trial. He said it would be tough no matter how he was able to juggle his time. I just don't see any way to distinguish him from other self-employed jurors who depend on their hourly or income by the job.

There's a great deal else to be said about this juror, but I don't think there's any need to say it. It's the Court's preference whether you'd like to take that up.

THE COURT: You want to --

MR. WEINREB: Sure. I'm happy to do it that way.

Your Honor, I disagree that he can't be distinguished from others. I do think he has a genuine hardship, but I don't believe it's a disqualifying hardship. And I base that on a couple of things. The most important one is he seemed to be a very earnest and honest person who struggled hard to say what he believed to honestly be true accurately. And he was given many opportunities to say that this would be a disqualifying hardship for him, but he simply couldn't do it. But every time he was asked, he kept stopping short of that. He said it would be a financial hit, that it would be difficult. But he didn't say that it would be the kind of hardship that he couldn't bear.

And, in fact, he did point out -- or he did acknowledge that he has a husband who also has an income, and you can -- he contributes to the household expenses. And he said that there was -- there was some work he could do on the Fridays and after hours and so on that would continue with some income, plus he gets the daily stipend.

So although I do acknowledge that -- he certainly made it clear that this would be a financial hit, he did also acknowledge that juror service is a sacrifice for everybody and that he did not go so far as to say that it was too much of a sacrifice.

THE COURT: Okay. With respect to this juror, I think I'm going to actually reserve and read the transcript again. So I think you should make all your points, and I'll let you know at the beginning of the week on him. I think it's a close -- I think I know what your argument is going to be, and I think it may be a close call on both. I just would like to be sure I'm seeing what he actually said as opposed to what my faulty memory may be about that.

THE COURT: Yeah. Go ahead. That's all I'll say about that.

MR. BRUCK: I suppose the other alternative would be to argue the case when we all have the transcript on Tuesday.

MR. BRUCK: Not that --

THE COURT: If you want to do it that way, that's fine. In other words, that might be an approach for close cases, which I think this is a close case, frankly. I don't know which way. I want to look at it. I say that principally because I had the same impression of him personally that Mr. Weinreb just referred to; and that is, he struck me as a very conscientious witness, very careful about what he was saying and wanting to be sure he was telling us things accurately and so on. He seemed to be struggling sometimes with that, but the very fact that he was struggling indicated his earnestness to me. I found that appealing. That doesn't necessarily answer the other questions, which I think are very close questions. And that's why I'd like to look at the transcript. If you want to have that opportunity, we can come back to him the beginning of the week.

I think what I'd like to do, under those conditions, is take it up at 8:30 so we can actually get started at 9:00.

MR. WEINREB: Sure. Fine.

THE COURT: Without logistical issues.

MS. CLARKE: You're awfully demanding.

MR. CHAKRAVARTY: Your Honor, just on that point, obviously, if everybody is inclined to think that that's going to be more helpful, then that makes sense. But our collective memory of him and his demeanor and the other observations that will factor into your decision are best closest in time to those observations. I'm just suggesting that if the parties made the arguments now, then you would be fully equipped, both based on our arguments as well as your own observations and then having the transcript, to be able to make an assessment as opposed to us arguing from the black and white divorced from the actual voir dire process that we actually had here where we were -- the impressions that were made in front of us are going to be pronounced.

MR. WEINREB: I actually second that. I think that if we start arguing from transcripts, the argument time is going to begin to overwhelm the voir dire time.

THE COURT: Well, I don't want that to happen.

MR. BRUCK: My memory is also faulty.

THE COURT: We'll just -- we'll just make sure it doesn't get out of control. I don't know that this will be a common thing to do, so I think let's -- we'll -- I don't think it's that far away from the event Tuesday that we won't have a memory of his persona as he sat here.

40 was excused. Brings us to 41.

MS. CLARKE: There's no motion.

MR. WEINREB: No motion.

THE COURT: Okay. So she's in. 42.

MR. WEINREB: The government moves to excuse 42 for cause. We would submit that he is the very definition of somebody who's substantially impaired in his ability to consider the death penalty and impose it. He clearly is philosophically opposed to it in every way, and the only reason that he stopped short of saying that he couldn't do it was simply his statement that, Any absolutist thing makes me uncomfortable. And, yet, when he was asked repeatedly whether there were any circumstances under which he could impose it, he couldn't think of them.

And, in addition, he -- at the end when the parties were asking him questions, Mr. Bruck asked him to imagine a situation in which the facts were especially egregious and heinous and asked him, even under those circumstances, even the most egregious or heinous kind of case, could you impose it. And the best he could muster was possibly.

I am certain that if the Court asked him if he could apply the presumption of doubt -- the presumption of innocence or apply the reasonable doubt standard and the best he could do is say possibly, that that juror would not survive voir dire. And that is Witherspoon and Witt, essentially give the government a corresponding right to somebody who is fully able to consider actually imposing the death penalty despite their personal views. And he did not say that he could do it. In fact, he indicated in every way that he could not do it.

The other objection we have is that he is a professor of criminal justice; and putting someone like that in the jury box is like putting an expert witness in the jury box, somebody who is particularly liable to exert such a disproportionate influence on the jurors based on his knowledge of things outside of the courtroom, not just based on ordinary life experience but on specialized training that he's had for years and years of pursuing this career and doing research in it and being a published author, that it would interfere with the process of deliberation that jurors are expected to undertake with one another.

MR. BRUCK: If I may, to take that in reverse order, I don't know that he is in any different posture than a doctor or a lawyer who aren't disqualified. There were no questions. The government didn't pursue the question of whether he would, in effect, behave as an expert witness in the jury room. And I just don't think there's any basis for that at all.

As opposed -- as for his death penalty views, the problem, if there is one, is simply that he speaks like a social scientist, with a sense of precision. And if something is possible, he describes it as possible, not that, yes, it will happen. There are many contingencies, and he's holding them all in his mind in a very analytically precise way.

He is the juror of whom the Supreme Court wrote in Witherspoon v. Illinois that it is possible for a juror to be opposed to the death penalty and irrevocably committed to its abolition and still adhere to the -- carry out his responsibilities as required by the laws of the state. And that's what this juror -- that's who this juror is. And I don't think people ought to be disqualified from service because of the precision with which they express themselves.

He was -- on the one hand, he was listing valid mitigating factors that he is aware are present in this case, or at least one, age, which is, as a matter of Eighth Amendment constitutional law a weighty mitigating factor. So there's nothing wrong with the fact that he takes that heavily into account. It would be unconstitutional if a jury did not. And the amount of weight is for the jury. It's not disqualifying.

As far as the general proposition, looking generally at the run of cases, he clearly is on the end of the scale where he would require a great deal of proof. And that can't be disqualifying under Witherspoon. And when that becomes disqualifying, even as to a single juror, we have reversible error.

So I'm not going to say this is not -- there's not an argument to be made, but when you look at the totality of the circumstances, he, we think, may not be disqualified under Witherspoon and Wainwright v. Witt.

THE COURT: No. I'll allow the strike. It seems to me that the standard, whether anti-death penalty views prevent or substantially impair the performance of the duty, has to be understood in practical terms rather than theoretical or hypothetical terms. And I think a good bit of what might have looked like an ability to do it was in the latter zone of hypothesis and theory, and I did not sense that it had a practical significance in his case. I just saw -- I think he is -- he would not practically be able, so I think he fits within the substantially impaired -- or his views would substantially impair his ability to exercise that in this case. So I think he --

I have to say I was a little concerned as well about his eagerness about the case, signaled by his reading the docket. It's an intrusion of his -- I understand that somebody in his field would do that, but -- and that may even relate a little bit to the second point the government made, that this is an occasion for some professional interest in the workings of a case like this. I don't know. It's just -- I don't rely on that. I just noted that it was -- the flavor of eagerness. We're worried a little bit about eagerness and that there's a little sense of that in this case as well.

Number 43.

MR. WEINREB: Your Honor, the government moves to strike No. 43 as well. Number 43, I believe, is the quintessential example of somebody whose strong anti-death penalty views, combined with quite inconsistent answers about his ability to impose it, especially in light of his demeanor and the way that he spoke, demonstrate that he is substantially impaired in his ability to consider the death penalty.

He said that repeatedly, I don't think that I -- I don't know that I think it's the right thing to do. I don't know that I believe in the death penalty. I don't think that's the right law. But beyond that, he said that I'm not sure I have the personal constitution to impose it. And he said, I don't know if I could live with myself if I did.

And that's something beyond -- that's exactly what Witherspoon was getting at, although I agree with Mr. Bruck that it is possible under the law to be opposed to the death penalty on religious, philosophical, and moral grounds and still be qualified as a juror if you can bring yourself to put all of that aside and follow the law and actually impose it.

This is somebody who made it clear that he did not believe he could do it or at the very least was quite unsure he could do it. And he -- he said -- he said that he could impose it only in an extreme situation. But, again, when pressed repeatedly to name an extreme situation in which he could impose it, he simply couldn't come up with one.

Again, it seemed like he was the kind of person who was reluctant to state an absolutist position because people don't like to believe that they are not open-minded people. And yet the definite impression that he gave was of somebody who believed that he -- in the abstract or theoretically he could do it, but when it came down to whether he personally could actually do it despite his strong beliefs against it, that he couldn't or at least was so unsure that he amounts to substantial impairment.

MR. BRUCK: Well, in this instance, this juror said over and over again, If I really felt it was warranted, I could be convinced of it. I could be convinced of that position. It was -- he would say, I would not say it is an absolute position. It is something I would struggle with. Open-minded and willing to be convinced. I don't know how I would respond if I were in that position. This is someone who has the self-knowledge to know that for many, many people, most people, this decision is somewhat traumatic, and no one knows what it's going to be like and how they're going to respond until they're in the position. And he is able to forecast that, unlike some people who don't really think about it until they get in the jury room. That shouldn't be disqualifying.

And he has a full sense of the enormity of the decision and of the effect of the decision on the person making it. That can't be disqualifying; and if it is, then we really have, you know, the problem that Witherspoon identified of the hanging jury, composed of only people who are required to say they're sure of how they would respond in that life-changing moment of decision. That's really the most that one can say against him, and that's not very much, and it's certainly not enough under Wainwright v. Witt.

THE COURT: No. Again, I think he falls in the zone of substantially impaired. You know, if you look at -- again, at the answers on the questionnaire as well as the answers here today, there really is held out as a -- again, hypothetical possibility that isn't fleshed out at all. It's sort of like an X variable in a formula. It's possible that it could be some value there that would lead to an outcome and so on. But if it's just the possibility without some practical illustration of it, it comes, I think, too close to being an absolute position and not enough openness.

In contrast, you know, there are people who have answered this questionnaire who -- not at the 1 and 2 level. They may be at the 3 or 4 on the scale. They're opposed. They're not quite as dogmatic about it and who say, I'm generally opposed to it. It would have to be a special case, but I could do it in that case. So I think that's the distinction that the cases are getting at, I think. So I would allow this one as well.

And 45, we'll see on Wednesday. 46 was excused. Number 47 was excused. Number 48, we'll see on Tuesday. 49 is excused.

MS. CLARKE: 49 is a government --

MR. WEINREB: We excused 49.

MS. CLARKE: I think that's a government motion.

MR. WEINREB: That's a government motion, I think.

THE COURT: Oh, I'm sorry.

MR. WEINREB: The government moves to strike No. 49. Both in her questionnaire and in her questioning, she said that she was unalterably opposed to the death penalty and could not retreat from that position in the slightest, express any ambiguity about it.

MR. BRUCK: We have no argument on that.

THE COURT: I think that's true. Maybe that's why I thought she was excused. It seemed fairly clear. She was pretty adamant about it.

Number 50, we regarded as not qualified.

Number 51.

MR. WEINREB: That was an agreement.

THE COURT: This was agreed, okay.

Number 52 has been deferred.

MS. CLARKE: No. Agreed.

THE COURT: I was being euphemistic.

THE COURT: Fine, yes. But he won't know it.

THE COURT: He'll know that he's deferred.

And I think there was an agreement as to 53 as well.

MS. CLARKE: That's correct.

THE COURT: That brings us to 54.

MR. WEINREB: Your Honor, the government moves to excuse No. 54, again, on the ground that he is substantially impaired in his ability to consider the death penalty. And I want to -- I'm sure the Court is quite familiar, since he was the last one there, with what he said. I want to highlight a couple of things. First, just his -- first of all, he again seemed like the kind of person who was speaking very much in terms of abstract belief when he talked about his potential willingness to consider the death penalty and not in terms of something that, as a practical matter, he actually could do.

Although he said that his -- he was opposed to the death penalty, that he could impose it in a particular case if the facts justified it. He then said he couldn't think of any fact that would, in fact, justify it. He also said in his questionnaire that he considered the death penalty to be nothing more than state-sponsored vengeance, and yet he seemed to -- and in saying that he could impose it if the government somehow proved to him that his views were wrong, he seemed to be indicating that -- the logical inference to draw from that is that, only if the government could prove to him that the death penalty was something other than state-sponsored vengeance, meaning that as matter of public policy or logic, as he put it, of utility, that the death penalty's benefit actually outweighed what he obviously sees to be its downside.

And, yet, again, he was someone who was utterly incapable, could not give any example, any circumstances that would lead him to that belief. He said that at one point the government would have to prove that the law was just for him to do it, which obviously is not a burden the government bears and should not have to bear. And it's not an idea that ought to be injected into the jury room where people may, in fact, be in the category of people who believe the death penalty is unjust and yet are willing to say, despite my personal belief, I'm not the lawmaker, and I'm willing to put that aside and follow the law as it's given to me by the Court. He didn't say he would follow the law as given to him by the Court. He seemed to indicate that the government would have to prove to him what the law should be.

I also want to draw attention to his demeanor as he was sitting there. In contrast to some of the other jurors we've discussed, he was not somebody who seemed to be coming across as extremely earnest and struggling to give an honest opinion. He seemed to be somebody who was trying to give a right answer, an answer that he considered to be correct in some way, according to some metric. And that is not a reliable juror or a -- and it means -- it calls into question the reliability of his answers but, on top of that, does not recommend him as a juror in general.

MR. BRUCK: Well, Mr. Weinreb identified an ambiguity in his answers and went hard for it and cleared it up but not in the way the government suggests. He tried to get this juror explored whether this juror really meant that the government would have to change his policy views, and the answer he got was that, I could vote for it in a specific case or in a -- based on the facts of the specific case.

The fact that he can't offer hypotheticals about what the case would look like, we haven't been allowed to ask for hypotheticals on the other end of the spectrum, about what sorts of terrorist bombings would cause a juror to vote for life. And the fact that he wasn't able to do that to the government's liking is absolutely -- it not only is not a grounds for disqualification, but it will be very unfair to allow that to count as evidence in favor of the government's motion and not us -- not allow us to ask the question of jurors at the other end of the scale.

This was a juror in the -- at the end of the day who got the distinction between having to change policy and having -- on the one hand and having the government simply having to show that the -- on the facts of the case the death penalty was warranted, and he said he could be persuaded, which is where he began with -- he classified himself as a "C" on Question 90 on Page 24. And he's a bright enough guy to understand what that means. And he's opposed to, but he could impose it if the facts and the law in a particular case called for it. That's where we started with him, and that's where we ended up.

Like a lot of jurors, his mannerisms are not the same as everybody else's. He's a computer nerd and kind of talks that way, but that should not be disqualifying either. And we think that he's clearly qualified and that it would be Witherspoon error to rule otherwise.

THE COURT: I think I'm going to review his transcript as well because I do think the questioning got a little -- it sounded a little bit like ships passing in the night sometimes, and I just want to clarify that as I look at that. So I want to look at that.

And then Juror No. 55 was an agreed excuse, I believe.

THE COURT: And 57, after her examination, I think it was agreed.

MS. CLARKE: Judge, how many do you plan to call in on --

THE COURT: We're only going to do 20. The pace is such that -- I'm hoping that at some point it may accelerate the more experienced everybody gets at this, but I don't think it's realistic to have any more than 20 for Tuesday. We'll always be looking to increase the number as available.

MS. CLARKE: I'm just asking.

THE COURT: I think for Tuesday we're going to be cautious.

MR. BRUCK: Should we stagger when they come in?

THE COURT: We thought about that. I think that just adds another administrative -- people get called in for jury duty for a day, they can come and they get a free lunch.

MR. BRUCK: For which there is no such thing.

MS. CLARKE: For which they're appreciative but not happy.

Judge, before you leave, could we re-raise the jury data motion?

THE COURT: It's something I have to talk to Jim about. Neither of us has had the time to do it.

MS. CLARKE: I don't understand what you've been doing.

THE COURT: I'm aware that it's there. We'll get to it.

MR. WEINREB: You can go ahead.

MS. CONRAD: I just wanted to make this part of the record. This is the CD we provided to the government. It's of the Matty in the Morning Show, the discussion of [REDACTED]getting on the jury because we have asked that there will be questions of those prospective jurors who listen to this show.

MR. WEINREB: Your Honor, we would object to that being made part of the record until some juror actually says they listen to Matty in the Morning.

MS. CONRAD: I think the Court should be aware of what's in it so that we understand why we're asking questions about them listening to Matty in the Morning.

THE COURT: I'll listen to it. I don't know what the difference -- you want me to listen to it. I don't know if that makes it part of the record.

MR. WEINREB: That, I have no objection to.

THE COURT: I don't know what "part of the record" means, what the implications are.

MS. CONRAD: Fine, whatever. Thank you.

MR. WEINREB: Before the Court recesses for the day, can we have one moment to confer with counsel?

THE COURT: Yes. Is there anything else administratively we're going to talk about? I think -- people can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think our pool approach has quelled a rebellion.

THE COURT: I think they're satisfied.

MR. WEINREB: Actually, another question we have is how many jurors are going to be brought in on Tuesday?

THE COURT: Twenty.

MR. WEINREB: I'm sorry. If we could just have one moment?

(Discussion held off the record.)

THE COURT: The stenographer is wondering whether she needs to stay here. We're all done?

MR. WEINREB: We're all done.

MS. CLARKE: We're done. Thank you very much.

(Whereupon, at 4:27 p.m. the trial recessed.)

Continue to Day 61.Rulings on Challenges to Jurors 38 and 54