11.Sam Lipson — Direct (Part 1)
289 linesSAM LIPSON, duly sworn
COURT CLERK: Have a seat. State your name, spell your first and last name for the record, keep your voice up and speak into the mic so that everyone can hear you.
SAM LIPSON: Sam Lipson, S-A-M, L-I-P-S-O-N.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. CONRAD:
MS. CONRAD: Good afternoon, Mr. Lipson. Can you tell us where you grew up?
SAM LIPSON: I grew up in Cambridge, Massachusetts.
MS. CONRAD: Cambridge, Massachusetts? And what do you do for a living?
SAM LIPSON: I'm a director of environmental health in the public health department.
MS. CONRAD: Where did you go to school?
SAM LIPSON: I went to high school at Cambridge Rindge and Latin, and then I went to undergraduate at University of Chicago and UC Berkeley, and then I did graduate work at UMass in Boston.
MS. CONRAD: And do you still have family members living in Cambridge?
SAM LIPSON: I do.
MS. CONRAD: Specifically, does your mother still live in Cambridge?
SAM LIPSON: She does.
MS. CONRAD: And what is your mother's name?
SAM LIPSON: Joanna Herlihy.
MS. CONRAD: Can you spell that for the court reporter?
SAM LIPSON: J-O-A-N-N-A, H-E-R-L-I-H-Y.
MS. CONRAD: And where does your mother live?
SAM LIPSON: 410 Norfolk Street.
MS. CONRAD: And how long has she lived there?
SAM LIPSON: Since '94, I believe.
MS. CONRAD: Does she own that building?
SAM LIPSON: Yes.
MS. CONRAD: And how many apartments are in that building?
SAM LIPSON: There are three apartments.
MS. CONRAD: At some point did she rent an apartment to the Tsarnaev family?
SAM LIPSON: Yes, she did.
MS. CONRAD: And did you come to meet members of that family?
SAM LIPSON: I did meet at one time or another every member of that family.
MS. CONRAD: And who was the first person in that family that you met?
SAM LIPSON: Anzor, who is the father.
MS. CONRAD: Can you spell that, please?
SAM LIPSON: A-N-Z-O-R.
MS. CONRAD: And when approximately was that, do you remember?
SAM LIPSON: Probably -- it was 2002, I'm pretty sure.
MS. CONRAD: Now, were you living at 410 Norfolk at that time?
SAM LIPSON: No, I wasn't.
MS. CONRAD: And how is it that you met Anzor?
SAM LIPSON: Well, as somebody renting the apartment from a Russian-speaking part of the world, my mother thought it would be interesting to her children to meet them as they moved into the third floor.
MS. CONRAD: Now, at that time, did you speak Russian yourself?
SAM LIPSON: Yes.
MS. CONRAD: And how did you learn Russian?
SAM LIPSON: It was my minor in college, and my father was a professor of Russian and Slavic linguistics.
MS. CONRAD: And does your mother also speak Russian?
SAM LIPSON: She does.
MS. CONRAD: When you -- when you first met Anzor, was he alone?
SAM LIPSON: When I first met him, was he physically alone?
MS. CONRAD: Yes. I don't mean -- not living alone, but did you meet him by himself?
SAM LIPSON: Yeah, I met him one-on-one initially.
MS. CONRAD: And did you have some more contact with him as time went on?
SAM LIPSON: I did.
MS. CONRAD: And tell us a little bit about how that came about.
SAM LIPSON: Well, he was working as an automobile mechanic, although he didn't have his own shop. So he was looking for people who had cars that needed to get work done. I brought my car to him on many occasions to get work done.
MS. CONRAD: And where would he do that work?
SAM LIPSON: Mostly either on the street or in an alleyway behind a shop on Broadway, or occasionally in an established garage he would rent in order to be able to use the lift.
MS. CONRAD: And I'm going to show you --
MS. CONRAD: Unless the government has an objection, I would offer to introduce Exhibit 3260; otherwise, I'll just show it to the witness only.
MS. PELLEGRINI: To the one, 3260, I have no objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: I'm sorry?
MS. PELLEGRINI: To the one, 3260, I have no objection.
MS. CONRAD: Okay. So we'd offer 3260 and ask that it be published.
(Defense Exhibit No. 3260 received into evidence.)
BY MS. CONRAD:
MS. CONRAD: Mr. Lipson, do you recognize what that's a picture of?
SAM LIPSON: Yes, I do.
MS. CONRAD: And what is that?
SAM LIPSON: That's the rug shop on Broadway in Cambridge that was in front of the alley where Anzor would work on cars.
MS. CONRAD: And showing you Exhibit 3258, can you tell us what that photograph depicts?
SAM LIPSON: Yeah, that is the alleyway behind the rug shop.
MS. CONRAD: Your Honor, I'd offer that as well. I think the jury's now seeing it.
MS. PELLEGRINI: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
(Defense Exhibit No. 3258 received into evidence.)
BY MS. CONRAD:
MS. CONRAD: So when you say "in the alleyway," can you put your finger on the screen and show us approximately where your car would be when Anzor was working on it?
SAM LIPSON: Oh, yeah. It would be on this side (indicating).
MS. CONRAD: So just right out there in the street?
SAM LIPSON: This is an alley. The street is --
MS. CONRAD: Right.
SAM LIPSON: Where you'd be standing if you took this picture, you would on the street.
MS. CONRAD: But there was no protection, for example, from the elements?
SAM LIPSON: No, it was pretty exposed, yeah.
MS. CONRAD: And tell us what your impressions of Anzor were when you first met him and were getting to know him.
SAM LIPSON: Well, he was a very strong guy. I just really took note of how powerful he was. Big, upper-body strength. You know, big, very powerful handshake. He was also very warm, he was very inviting. When I first met him, for instance, to go have tea at his house, that was sort of an offer that was put out there I think almost every time -- I met him the first few times. But very confident, strong person, you know.
MS. CONRAD: Did that -- what kinds of things did you talk to him about other than your car?
SAM LIPSON: Finding a garage he could rent. I know that he was trying to get his own business started. So he had had trouble finding a place to rent, and never did in the end, but we talked about what neighborhoods might be more affordable for garages.
MS. CONRAD: Was there a particular opportunity that came up that he was sort of excited about at one point?
SAM LIPSON: Yeah. There was an apartment, Section 8 apartment, in Chelsea that was going to be available that would have been big enough for the family but also had a garage that was attached and would have allowed him to work in the garage and have a place that he could afford.
MS. CONRAD: Let me ask you -- just stop you for a minute. What's Section 8, do you know?
SAM LIPSON: Yeah, Section 8 is a federal rental subsidy program.
MS. CONRAD: And the Tsarnaev family qualified for that?
SAM LIPSON: Yes.
MS. CONRAD: And, in fact, your mother received Section 8 payments when they were living at her apartment?
SAM LIPSON: Yes.
MS. CONRAD: And what happened with this opportunity in Chelsea?
SAM LIPSON: Well, as I understand, they weren't able to take the rental because it had leaded paint, and with younger kids, they were uninterested in renting it. They would have had to get a full removal for lead paint.
MS. CONRAD: Let's talk about the kids for a second. So we talked a little bit about Anzor. Did you come to meet the rest of the family over time?
SAM LIPSON: Yeah.
MS. CONRAD: And tell us who the members of that family were?
SAM LIPSON: Well, there's Jahar and Ailina and Bella and Tamerlan and Zubeida and Anzor.
MS. CONRAD: So there were six of them?
SAM LIPSON: Yeah.
MS. CONRAD: And they were all living in the apartment at 410 Norfolk?
SAM LIPSON: Yes.
MS. CONRAD: And showing you what's been introduced previously as Exhibit 1185-01 --
MS. CONRAD: What? You don't have it? Okay. I'll just put it on the screen.
And this is in evidence, so if we could have this for everybody, please.
MS. CONRAD: Do you recognize what this is a picture of?
SAM LIPSON: Yes.
MS. CONRAD: What is it?
SAM LIPSON: That's my mother's building.
MS. CONRAD: At 410 Norfolk?
SAM LIPSON: Yes.
MS. CONRAD: And which floor were the Tsarnaevs on?
SAM LIPSON: They were on the third floor.
MS. CONRAD: Can you just touch the screen and show us where their apartment would be?
SAM LIPSON: (Witness complies.)
MS. CONRAD: Would you say that's a fairly small apartment for a family of six?
SAM LIPSON: Yeah. Even though there were three bedrooms, they're very small. It's a very crowded hallway, very narrow... So, yeah, all the apartments are very crowded.
MS. CONRAD: And what -- you eventually met Zubeidat, is that right, or "Zubeida," as you refer --
SAM LIPSON: I call her "Zubeida," or Zarema Zubeida.
MS. CONRAD: And she was the mother?
SAM LIPSON: Yes.
MS. CONRAD: And what were your impressions of her?
SAM LIPSON: Well, she was a very lively person, very colorful person, warm, very talkative; had kind of a high sort of singsongy voice, as I recall, kind of -- sort of excitable but very -- kind of a spark, I guess, you know.
MS. CONRAD: How did her personality compare to Anzor's?
SAM LIPSON: Well, Anzor, although he seemed very confident and, you know, strong, he really didn't speak much. He was a person of few words, is kind of the way I imagined, you know, sort of a cowboy. He made good eye contact, was very warm, but didn't speak much, whereas Zarema Zubeidat would be very loquacious. She spoke a fair amount. Her English was fairly good.
MS. CONRAD: And how was Anzor's English?
SAM LIPSON: Not very good. He spoke primarily Russian, I spoke only a little Russian. I mean, my Russian is 25 years old so it's not so great. But he didn't -- didn't speak a whole lot. It was simple, shorter sentences.
MS. CONRAD: Did you observe any changes in Anzor over the years from 2002, I guess, going forward to 2013 -- well, actually, he left around 2012, right?
SAM LIPSON: Yes.
MS. CONRAD: So for that ten-year period -- during that ten-year period did you notice any changes with him? First of all, let's start with physically.
SAM LIPSON: Yeah. In the last few years, he had seemed to have lost weight, or seemed to be kind of less energetic, anyway. I would say that that sort of muscular build that I first noticed when I met him was diminished a fair amount.
MS. CONRAD: Were you aware of any medical problems that he was having?
SAM LIPSON: I was. I had heard that he had --
MS. PELLEGRINI: Objection to what he'd heard.
BY MS. CONRAD:
MS. CONRAD: Did you make any observations of any physical ailments that he seemed to have?
MS. PELLEGRINI: That's asked and answered already.
THE COURT: No, go ahead. You could have that.
MS. CONRAD: I don't think -- thank you.
BY MS. CONRAD:
MS. CONRAD: Did you make any observations of whether he was suffering from any physical ailments?
SAM LIPSON: When I would talk to him, mostly around times I would bring my car or pick up my car or just explain to him what might be wrong with the car, there were times that he appeared to be in pain.
MS. CONRAD: And how would you -- what observations did you make that led you to that conclusion?
SAM LIPSON: Well, observations that he seemed un -- even less communicative than normal. It wasn't like he would hold his stomach or anything, but he would just seem to be making as few motions as possible. But also, I had it relayed to me that he had --
MS. PELLEGRINI: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MS. CONRAD:
MS. CONRAD: Did he tell you that he was having physical problems or complained of pain?
SAM LIPSON: He did.
MS. CONRAD: What did he say?
MS. PELLEGRINI: Objection.
THE COURT: No, you may have that.
SAM LIPSON: Yeah, he talked about just generally that he was in pain, and not going into great detail about where the injury may have come from. But, again, he didn't use a lot of words when we spoke.
BY MS. CONRAD:
MS. CONRAD: I sort of skipped over something I want to go back to for a moment. What observations did you make about his work ethic?
SAM LIPSON: He was a tough guy.
MS. CONRAD: Tell me about that.
SAM LIPSON: He is a tough guy, I'm sure. Well, he worked often at night in cold weather in the alley. He didn't have a garage, so he had to work outside. He would still be out late on many nights after dark. And he would work in the cold months of the year, again, without a garage. So I saw him as a pretty tough person who was pretty determined to do work.
MS. CONRAD: Did you make any observations of changes in his personality or demeanor over the ten-year period that you knew him?
SAM LIPSON: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was fairly obvious that he was, you know, burdened in later years quite a bit. We had talked in the earlier years about renting a garage and where he might start a business, and it didn't seem like he had any interest in that towards the end. And I think he just seemed unhappy in general. He just didn't seem very forward and warm in the way that he had been when I first met him.
MS. CONRAD: Was he unfriendly towards you?
SAM LIPSON: No, he was never unfriendly.
MS. CONRAD: What about Zubeidat or -- sorry -- Zubeida. What changes did you notice in her over the ten-year period?
SAM LIPSON: Well, I should say I did not see her nearly as often. Anzor I saw much more often because he would work on my car. Zubeida I would see sometimes in front of the building if I was going to visit my mother. But she began to dress differently in the last two years on the one or two occasions I had seen her. I'm not very observant about dress, I should say. I often miss even friends of mine, I might not notice if they're wearing a new shirt. But there was a -- she was covering herself on her head and --
MS. CONRAD: You mean in the Muslim tradition of wearing a head covering or hijab?
SAM LIPSON: Yeah. And in earlier years when I met her she had very colorful jewelry, earrings and that sort of thing, and I didn't see that in later -- later years when I did see her.
MS. CONRAD: So I take it she had not been covering her hair in the early years that you knew her?
SAM LIPSON: Yeah; that's correct.
MS. CONRAD: That is something you noticed?
SAM LIPSON: Yes; I did notice.
MS. CONRAD: Anything else you noticed about the kinds of clothes that she wore given your limited observations?
SAM LIPSON: Yeah. Yeah, I did notice these colorful prints that she had, you know, a shawl or dress, that was, you know, very lively in the early years when I first met her.
MS. CONRAD: And later?
SAM LIPSON: Kind of simple clothes, like darker colors, you know.
MS. CONRAD: What about her demeanor or how she presented herself? Did you notice changes about that over the years?
SAM LIPSON: Yeah. You know, I think that she and both Anzor had a certain optimism and energy when I first met them. It was a new place, new opportunities. And she was very excited about the things she was going to try. She would talk -- she was a very talkative person, so she would talk energetically about things that might come to pass.
MS. CONRAD: You talked about, I think, things she was interested in doing. Do you know what she was doing, for example, for work?
SAM LIPSON: She was doing some work, I think, early on as a home-health aid. So I know she went back and got training in cosmetology. I had talked to her about cosmetic -- cosmetology, like cosmetic tattoo, because I knew a little bit about it through my own work, and I was interested that she was trying to do that.
MS. CONRAD: And can you just explain to us what cosmetic tattoo is?
SAM LIPSON: Sure. This is basically putting permanent tattoo to substitute for makeup that you would apply every day. This would be like --
MS. CONRAD: So like eye-liner or something like that?
SAM LIPSON: Exactly. Or maybe an eyebrow enhancement, that kind of thing.
MS. CONRAD: And was that something she wound up pursuing professionally?
SAM LIPSON: It was my understanding she wasn't able to get regular work in that area. She may have gotten some work initially, but it didn't turn into a career for her and --
MS. CONRAD: Now, you described her as outgoing, talkative. And did that change over time or did the way she talked change over time?
SAM LIPSON: Yeah. I mean, again, I should say I saw her far less often. I might have seen her once or twice a year, but it was fairly obvious to talk to her that there was an anxiety. She would speak of, you know, her fears and concerns mostly and how things weren't working out. I mean, it was an anxious -- these were anxious conversations. She spoke very quickly but she had a high pitch that really made it seem like she was very upset, or nearly upset. I mean, there was sort of a tense tone.
MS. CONRAD: And would you say it was hysterical?
MS. PELLEGRINI: Objection.
THE COURT: You may answer it.
SAM LIPSON: In that direction.
BY MS. CONRAD:
MS. CONRAD: Now, what about the children? Did you know the daughters Ailina and Bella very well?
SAM LIPSON: I didn't know them very well, no.
MS. CONRAD: And did you notice -- but did you notice a change in how they attired themselves over time?
SAM LIPSON: No, I did not really run into them in the way that I would occasionally run into Zubeida and...
MS. CONRAD: What about Jahar? And by the way, do you see Jahar in the courtroom?
SAM LIPSON: I do.
MS. CONRAD: And he's sitting at counsel table?
SAM LIPSON: Yes.
MS. CONRAD: And when was the last time you saw him?
SAM LIPSON: It might have been 2012.
MS. CONRAD: And how old was he when you first met him?
SAM LIPSON: He was eight.
MS. CONRAD: And what was he like?
SAM LIPSON: Very sweet.
MS. CONRAD: What did he look like?
SAM LIPSON: Skinny kid.
MS. CONRAD: Was he -- did you have much interaction with him?
SAM LIPSON: No, not a lot. I think he was a little shy. I think he was -- around adults who were not family members. You know, he didn't necessarily interact a lot so we didn't have a lot of conversations.
MS. CONRAD: But if you greeted him, how would he respond?
SAM LIPSON: He was a sweet kid. I mean, you know, he made eye contact and would smile. You know, you get a sense of that. You know, even with kids you get a sense.
MS. CONRAD: Was he -- would you sort of see him come and go from the apartment?
SAM LIPSON: Yeah, especially in later years that was almost the only way I would happen to see him, by -- if I'm walking in and he's maybe racing off to -- often on a bicycle, just looking busy.
MS. CONRAD: How did he seem?
SAM LIPSON: Oh, cheerful. You know, I'd say it's hard to think of a time when he wasn't -- even if it was brief, some kind of cheerful greeting or, you know, wave or something.
MS. CONRAD: What about Tamerlan? What was he like when you first met him and got to know him a little bit?
SAM LIPSON: Also very strong, you know, muscular physique. He was older, of course.
MS. CONRAD: When you say "older" --
SAM LIPSON: Than Jahar, since we were talking about... And so he had -- when I first met him, he was more mature in other ways as well. You know, he dressed nicely. It looked like he -- I saw him dress in sort of more euro-style clothing, cologne, you know, smooth, kind of slick.
MS. CONRAD: And how old was he when you -- approximately when you first met him, or how old did he appear to be?
SAM LIPSON: Probably about 15.
MS. CONRAD: And by the way, do you know more or less who the oldest child in the family was and who the youngest was? And who was the oldest?
SAM LIPSON: Tamerlan.
MS. CONRAD: And who was the youngest?
SAM LIPSON: Jahar.
MS. CONRAD: And how would -- what were your interactions with Tamerlan like in those earlier years?
SAM LIPSON: Not a lot, but he was more sort of gregarious. Like he would initiate a handshake, a short conversation, maybe, in the hall. And he was kind of very -- you know, I'd say charismatic. You know, he had a quick smile and would kind of present himself, you know, take the initiative.
MS. CONRAD: Now, how did that change, or did that change, over the years?
SAM LIPSON: Yeah, you know, as I said with Zarema, I did not see, other than Anzor, other members of the family very often, so this is based on having maybe run across him once a year over the last several years. But he had developed -- grown a beard in the last couple of years.
MS. CONRAD: When you say "a beard," do you mean like a goatee or --
SAM LIPSON: No, I mean a full beard. And he felt more kind of reserved and distant.
MS. CONRAD: Now, let me just stop there for a second and let me just sort of try to get a bead on who's living in the apartment over the years. Now, you said initially it was the parents and the four children. And did that change over time?
SAM LIPSON: Yeah. There was movement of -- as I said, initially Jahar was not with them. I don't believe the girls were either. They came later. And there were different times when one of the parents would return to Kazakhstan for a visit. In later years, I understand there were people moving in and out. Tamerlan moved out at one point, but I didn't keep track of any of that.
MS. CONRAD: Do you know if the girls moved out at some point?
SAM LIPSON: I wasn't aware until the time of Ailina's wedding of the girls moving out.
MS. CONRAD: And how old was Ailina when she got married, do you remember?
SAM LIPSON: She might have been 15. She might have been 15.
MS. CONRAD: And do you know where she got married?
SAM LIPSON: Olmonty.
MS. CONRAD: And how do you know that?
SAM LIPSON: We -- there was a video of the wedding that had been shared with my mom, and we sat down and watched it.
MS. CONRAD: And so did Ailina move out at that point, or she had moved out when she got married?
SAM LIPSON: Yeah, for a period of time, but I wasn't really involved with the movement of folks back and forth so I didn't really notice how long she was away.
MS. CONRAD: Did you become aware at some point that Tamerlan had gone back to Dagestan or somewhere in Russia?
MS. PELLEGRINI: Objection.
THE COURT: You may answer it.
SAM LIPSON: Not at the time.
BY MS. CONRAD:
MS. CONRAD: After the fact?
SAM LIPSON: Yeah.
MS. CONRAD: And at some point, do you know whether Anzor and Zubeidat moved back to Dagestan?
SAM LIPSON: Yeah, I knew that in 2012 that they both left.
MS. CONRAD: And do you know where Jahar was living in 2012?
SAM LIPSON: Well, I knew he had gone to college, so I assumed he was there most of the time, anyway.
MS. CONRAD: "There" meaning in college?
SAM LIPSON: Yeah. Yeah.
MS. CONRAD: Would you see him around very much?
SAM LIPSON: No. And again, I didn't even see him around that much before he went to college. But if I think about the last time I may have run across him, it might have been after he started. But that would have been a chance encounter in front of the building, I guess.
MS. CONRAD: So at that point with Anzor and Zubeidat gone back to Dagestan and Jahar off in college, do you know who was living in that third-floor apartment?
SAM LIPSON: Yeah, I knew that Tamerlan and Karima were living up there with their newborn.
MS. CONRAD: And who's Karima?
SAM LIPSON: That was Tamerlan's wife.
MS. CONRAD: Do you know if that was the name she was born with?
SAM LIPSON: Oh, it was not.
MS. CONRAD: Do you know what it was?
SAM LIPSON: Katherine.
MS. CONRAD: And is that Katherine Russell?
SAM LIPSON: Yes.
MS. CONRAD: And at that point when Tamerlan is living with his wife and child, how were your interactions with him?
SAM LIPSON: Almost nonexistent. I mean, I might have run across him once in that last year or so in the hallway of the building, I believe -- narrow hallway, you know, can't -- if you're both passing you have to interact a little bit. So that would be the only interaction that I can recall.
MS. CONRAD: And was he as outgoing and friendly as he had been before?
SAM LIPSON: No. I'm not even sure he made eye contact.
MS. CONRAD: Did you greet him?
SAM LIPSON: Yeah, I think instinctually I normally -- if it's somebody I know, I normally say hi at least, just without thinking about it.
MS. CONRAD: And did he respond at all?
SAM LIPSON: I don't recall that he did. I remember feeling that he was -- had kind of withdrawn quite a bit, and it was almost as if it was someone you don't know, you know, even though we had known each other before, you know.
MS. CONRAD: For ten years, right?
SAM LIPSON: Yeah. Again, not on a frequent basis, but I had known him from the time he was about 15 and we would -- you know, to sight we would know each other and recognize each other.
MS. CONRAD: Now, are you aware there came a time when your mother decided to evict Tamerlan?
MS. PELLEGRINI: Objection.
THE COURT: Yeah, sustained.
We're just about at four o'clock. Do you have --
MS. CONRAD: That was -- I just have a couple more questions.
THE COURT: Are you going to have --
MS. PELLEGRINI: I am. I have cross.
THE COURT: I think we should take the recess at this point. Unfortunately, that means Mr. Lipson will have to come back in the morning, but I don't want to rush it. It will be more orderly.
So, jurors, we'll recess on the same conditions, and I'll see you in the morning.
COURT CLERK: All rise for the Court and the jury. The Court will be in recess.
(The Court and jury exit the courtroom and the proceedings adjourned at 3:59 p.m.)