10.Judith Russell — Direct/Cross/Redirect
500 linesJUDITH RUSSELL, duly sworn
COURT CLERK: State your name, spell your last name for the record, keep your voice up and speak into the mic.
JUDITH RUSSELL: Judith Russell, R-U-S-S-E-L-L.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. CLARKE:
MS. CLARKE: Good afternoon.
JUDITH RUSSELL: Good afternoon.
MS. CLARKE: We've got two forms of water up there for you.
JUDITH RUSSELL: I like that. Thank you.
MS. CLARKE: Let me just help the jury know who you are. You're Katherine Tsarnaev's mother?
JUDITH RUSSELL: I am.
MS. CLARKE: Katherine was married to Tamerlan Tsarnaev?
JUDITH RUSSELL: That's right.
MS. CLARKE: So you were -- he was your son-in-law?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Correct.
MS. CLARKE: So let's tell the jury just a little bit more about your background. Can you tell us the state where you live?
JUDITH RUSSELL: I live in Rhode Island.
MS. CLARKE: And what do you do for a living?
JUDITH RUSSELL: I'm a nurse. I work in a public charter high school.
MS. CLARKE: Registered nurse?
JUDITH RUSSELL: I'm a registered nurse, yup.
MS. CLARKE: And how long have you been a nurse?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Many years. Twenty-odd. 25, 28 years.
MS. CLARKE: And at some point you were married to a doctor?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Correct.
MS. CLARKE: Are you still married?
JUDITH RUSSELL: We are.
MS. CLARKE: Are you living together?
JUDITH RUSSELL: No; we're separated.
MS. CLARKE: And what kind of a doctor was he?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Emergency room doctor.
MS. CLARKE: And do you have children other than --
JUDITH RUSSELL: We have three girls, yup. Three girls are all in -- adult now. And two are in college, in Rhode Island.
MS. CLARKE: And where's Katherine in that --
JUDITH RUSSELL: She's the oldest. The oldest.
MS. CLARKE: And the other two are in college?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Correct. Uh-huh.
MS. CLARKE: And you also have -- any grandchildren?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Yup. One four-and-a-half-year-old granddaughter.
MS. CLARKE: And that is?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Katherine's daughter.
MS. CLARKE: Do you -- you call Katherine "Katherine" or do you call her "Katie"?
JUDITH RUSSELL: I call her "Katie" and "Katherine" depending on the day, or just what comes out.
MS. CLARKE: Or the mood?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Maybe.
MS. CLARKE: So you call her "Katherine" and "Katie"?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Yes, correct.
MS. CLARKE: Can you tell us just a little bit about Katie/Katherine growing up?
JUDITH RUSSELL: She was the oldest. She was always pretty independent minded, liked sports. She was actually into music. She was in the jazz club in middle school. And she was very much into ballet. That became a passion for her for a number of years. Seven years, probably.
MS. CLARKE: And Katherine at some point graduated from high school and went to college?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Yup. She went -- graduated high school and decided to go to Suffolk in -- here in Boston.
MS. CLARKE: And can you remember about when she went to Suffolk?
JUDITH RUSSELL: I'm really bad at dates.
MS. CLARKE: Yeah.
JUDITH RUSSELL: Sorry.
MS. CLARKE: All right.
JUDITH RUSSELL: After high school.
MS. CLARKE: After high school.
What do you know about when Katherine first met Tamerlan Tsarnaev?
JUDITH RUSSELL: They met, I believe, through a roommate of hers at the time. I think she was a freshman up at Suffolk. And they went out to a club and she met him there.
MS. CLARKE: And did you follow with her -- did you talk to your daughter about the nature of her relationship with Tamerlan?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Yeah. I mean, she didn't talk a lot about it, but at some point, you know, I found out she had been seeing him. And she told me he was from Russia, and I think she told me he was in school. And then over time I kind of learned that he really had only been at school -- at college -- I still don't really know -- but a very little bit. And so he wasn't in school really when she was dating him at the -- at all, yeah.
MS. CLARKE: So what was the nature of their relationship?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Well, I think she -- I don't know how serious it got when, and I can't remember dates, but by the time she -- she told me a couple of times she was seeing him, I got the idea that it was -- she really cared for him. So at some point I decided we should meet him. So we invited him down to our house on a weekend for, you know, a family meal.
MS. CLARKE: Before you met him, had there been an on-and-off sort of nature to the relationship?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Again, I'm sorry, I get confused, but there had been on-and-off. But, yeah, before I met him at our house, I don't think I knew that there was any on-and-off. I think that was after I met him.
MS. CLARKE: Okay. So you suggested to your daughter that maybe you wanted to meet this guy that she's dating?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Uh-huh.
MS. CLARKE: Can you tell the jury a little bit about that meeting with Tamerlan?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Yeah. We invited him down on a weekend. And Katie was living up in Boston, at Suffolk. So I think I might have invited them for two or something on Sunday afternoon. And they got there really late, maybe an hour and a half late. And I had communicated -- tried to communicate some, but I hadn't gotten through. And then they called and -- you know, so it's the first time I'm meeting him and they came really late and they said something like, "We drove the wrong way on 95." And it seemed kind of -- it bothered me, it irritated me, and it wasn't a good way to start off.
MS. CLARKE: Was punctuality a big thing for you?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Yeah, I've always valued punctuality. And I don't know, it didn't seem like a good way to start off. But it wasn't a big deal. But then it was hard to get to know him, and he didn't really seem interested in getting to know us, so it didn't start off on a really good footing.
MS. CLARKE: And then how did the relationship between Katherine and Tamerlan progress?
JUDITH RUSSELL: I think she got more serious about him but there had been -- they broke up once because I think she found out that he had cheated on her. And we -- the family kind of tried to advise her not to get back with him and it didn't work.
MS. CLARKE: What do you mean the family tried to advise her not to get back with him?
JUDITH RUSSELL: We weren't real happy with her choice in the relationship. So we thought -- you know, we found out he cheated on her and we thought this is a good opportunity, you know, break it off. Don't stay with him.
MS. CLARKE: Was it only because of the cheating that made you not happy with the relationship?
JUDITH RUSSELL: No, I didn't -- I didn't really want her to be with him. I didn't think they were a good match. He didn't seem to have any -- the only thing he had passion -- really was driving him was boxing at that point. So he didn't really have a job and -- I don't know. I didn't want her to be with him. The cheating was, you know, a big cause, yes.
MS. CLARKE: It was part of it?
JUDITH RUSSELL: It was part of it.
MS. CLARKE: Did there come a time when you got a telephone call from one of her -- Katherine's roommates about --
JUDITH RUSSELL: There was a time, yeah, when I got a call from one of the roommates' mother saying that they were upset -- the girls were upset, the other roommates, and really concerned because they thought that Katie was in a domestic --
MR. WEINREB: Objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Let me see you briefly.
(Discussion at sidebar and out of the hearing of the jury:)
THE COURT: First I want to know what you think she'll say.
MS. CLARKE: I know what she'll say. She got a telephone call from one of the parents of Katherine's roommates who reported that their daughter had reported that Tamerlan was physically abusive to Katherine.
MR. WEINREB: Your Honor, there's hearsay and there's hearsay, and this is multiple layers of hearsay so that it is presumably the friend of Katherine who may have heard it from Katherine reporting to her own mother who was then reporting to this person. Who knows how much the story changed over time. There's no possible way for the jury to evaluate the truthfulness or the reliability of that given that far removed from the original source is not here to be cross-examined about it.
MS. CLARKE: Well, I don't know that it's coming in for the truth of the matter asserted; it's hearsay regarding Tamerlan. But the government knows as well as we know that this is corroborated by an email that one of the roommates sent to a family member about Tamerlan being abusive to Katherine, this incident, and the roommates moved out.
So that's been -- I mean, it's not a hearsay sort of pulled out of the air.
MR. WEINREB: And we have moved to exclude that email because it's based on something that the individual in question didn't see or witness, just heard something and surmised that that was going on. We also know that Katherine Tsarnaev herself had firmly denied that.
MS. CLARKE: And her mother's going to say that.
MR. WEINREB: Yeah. But I think you're talking about something with great potential to confuse or mislead the jury unless the truth of it is known, and nobody who actually has firsthand knowledge about it is going to testify. So the jury is going to be asked to draw conclusions based on second- or third-hand information about something rather significant, and it's not a proper basis for them to --
THE COURT: Okay. Well, as a general matter we're going to be somewhat forgiving of hearsay, but I think multiple layers is a little too far, so I'll exclude it.
MS. CLARKE: Your Honor, what I planned on going to next, what she was going to say, was that she got a report from the roommate's mother that Katherine had been abused, so she talked to Katherine about it and Katherine denied it, but it caused her concern as to whether --
THE COURT: No.
MS. CLARKE: I can't do it?
THE COURT: No.
(In open court:)
BY MS. CLARKE:
MS. CLARKE: Okay. Without going into the content of the phone call or what you did thereafter, did that cause you some more concern about Tamerlan?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Did the phone call?
MS. CLARKE: Yes.
JUDITH RUSSELL: Yes.
MS. CLARKE: And did you do anything to try to dissuade Katherine from the relationship with Tamerlan?
JUDITH RUSSELL: I did. I had a number of -- I wouldn't call them conversations because, you know -- but I talked to her a number of times about my concerns, uh-huh.
MS. CLARKE: And did it do any good?
MS. CLARKE: Did other members of the family think of doing anything to try to dissuade Katherine from this relationship with Tamerlan?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Yeah, my sister talked to her, and also I think wrote her a letter with her concerns in it.
MS. CLARKE: And --
JUDITH RUSSELL: It didn't make a difference.
MS. CLARKE: After that -- I mean, did you start to notice changes in Katherine?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Well, she started to learn about Islam, so that was a change because she hadn't been religious as a child, and she started reading and saying she liked the religion.
MS. CLARKE: Did she talk with you about it?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Not much more -- yes, somewhat. Uh-huh.
MS. CLARKE: Was that a fast change, a gradual change? Can you describe it for the jury?
JUDITH RUSSELL: It was gradual but -- it's hard to answer. It was gradual that she started reading more and -- over a few months she started reading more.
MS. CLARKE: And do you know where that came from?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Well, she hadn't been interested until Tamerlan, but she said that she really liked it for herself and that she liked what she read, in reading the books.
MS. CLARKE: So Islam, the religion -- her interest in the religion came from Tamerlan?
JUDITH RUSSELL: It came at the same time.
MR. WEINREB: Objection to the question.
THE COURT: It was a leading question. Why don't you rephrase it.
BY MS. CLARKE:
MS. CLARKE: Can you tell us a little bit about -- were you aware of whether or not Tamerlan was religious?
JUDITH RUSSELL: When I first met him I didn't think he was, but over time he became much more religious and talked about it much more frequently. Like anytime I saw him, he would talk about it and try to, you know, show me books and get me to learn about it.
MS. CLARKE: So was this a change in him that you saw over time as well?
JUDITH RUSSELL: He became more involved in reading and talking about religion, yes.
MS. CLARKE: And your daughter did as well?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Uh-huh.
MS. CLARKE: Did Katherine's relationship with Tamerlan change your relationship with her?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Well, she didn't like that I didn't approve of their relationship, so that became a bit of a problem, yup.
MS. CLARKE: And what did that mean? What did that mean? How did that affect your relationship?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Well, we couldn't -- you know, we talked less, probably, because she didn't want to hear what I had to say about it.
MS. CLARKE: So there were topics you just couldn't touch?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Uh-huh.
MS. CLARKE: Did Katherine finish college?
JUDITH RUSSELL: No, she did not.
MS. CLARKE: And can you tell us why?
JUDITH RUSSELL: She got pregnant in her junior year at Suffolk with -- and they decided to keep the baby, so...
MS. CLARKE: With Tamerlan?
JUDITH RUSSELL: She got pregnant with Tamerlan's, yeah.
MS. CLARKE: So she dropped out of college after, what, the end of her junior year?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Yeah, the end of her junior year.
MS. CLARKE: And she and Tamerlan got married?
JUDITH RUSSELL: They did get married before the baby was born, uh-huh.
MS. CLARKE: Did you go to the wedding?
JUDITH RUSSELL: I did not go to the wedding. No one did. I mean, no one from our family.
MS. CLARKE: Was that a disappointment?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Yeah, it was. But -- yes, it was.
MS. CLARKE: So would you describe the relationship between you and Katherine and her aunt, your sister, and her as being very close before this time?
JUDITH RUSSELL: It was close.
MS. CLARKE: And did it get strained over the relationship with Tamerlan?
JUDITH RUSSELL: We always had contact. We always kept up. I mean, there were things we couldn't talk about, so there was some strain, but we didn't -- it wasn't -- we stayed supportive -- you know, overall supportive.
MS. CLARKE: When Katherine finished her junior year pregnant, where did she --
JUDITH RUSSELL: She moved back home to our family room.
MS. CLARKE: In Rhode Island?
JUDITH RUSSELL: In Rhode Island.
MS. CLARKE: Even though she and Tamerlan got married?
JUDITH RUSSELL: That's correct.
MS. CLARKE: And where did Tamerlan stay?
JUDITH RUSSELL: He was living in Cambridge with his family.
MS. CLARKE: Did you see him?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Yup. He would come down and visit on the weekends. Not every weekend, but he would come down and visit to see Katie during the pregnancy and after the baby was born. So I did see him, yes.
MS. CLARKE: How long did Katherine, or Katie, stay with you?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Until the baby was about ten months old.
MS. CLARKE: And how come after ten months?
JUDITH RUSSELL: I mean, at that point, you know, ten months, she was doing all right as a mother. She'd been there, what, ten months, ten months, you know, quite a long time. And it just seemed time to go. And she suggested it. I thought it was time that he supported his -- you know, his wife and daughter. And so she moved up to Cambridge.
MS. CLARKE: Did you get to know -- did Katherine talk about Tamerlan's family at all?
JUDITH RUSSELL: She talked about them.
MS. CLARKE: And what did you learn?
JUDITH RUSSELL: When I first met -- when I first heard about the family, she had said that Tamerlan's father was a lawyer, and then it turned out that she said he bought his law degree but she said that was typical over, you know, where they came from, Dagestan or Chechnya. And then I learned that he was a mechanic in Cambridge, you know, on his own. And then I just learned his brother was in high school and his mother did home-care.
MS. CLARKE: Was Katherine as forthcoming with you about the Tsarnaev family and her relationship with Tamerlan over time or did she sort of begin to shut down with you?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Yeah, over time she told me it wasn't correct to talk about people's private business or family, their own -- don't-talk-about-people type of thing, so it became a little off-topic, yeah.
MS. CLARKE: Did it worry you that that was isolating her?
MR. WEINREB: Objection, your Honor.
MS. CLARKE: I'll rephrase.
BY MS. CLARKE:
MS. CLARKE: Did you have any worries in terms of how private she was becoming?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Yeah, she was very cut off from a lot of the things she had been involved in earlier in her life with the marriage and relationship.
MS. CLARKE: And including her family?
JUDITH RUSSELL: We stayed in touch. We stayed supportive overall. But it was -- you know, I couldn't talk -- I stopped talking to her about the fact that I -- once the baby came, we stopped talking about my feelings about Tamerlan -- yeah, about him. We just had to rope off some things.
MS. CLARKE: So that -- why did you have to rope things off?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Because I didn't want to break off my relationship with her and lose my daughter and my granddaughter.
MS. CLARKE: Were you aware that -- sometime in 2012 Tamerlan took a trip to Russia?
JUDITH RUSSELL: I was aware of it.
MS. CLARKE: Can you tell the jury what you knew about that?
JUDITH RUSSELL: I knew that he wasn't working at that point and he decided to go over. I asked why. I asked my daughter, I think, why. And she said he wanted to visit family and friends; he hadn't been over there since he moved to this country. And so I didn't think much of it. She was staying home working and taking care of the baby, but it was what it was. I couldn't stop it.
MS. CLARKE: What was your reaction to him taking a trip to Russia?
JUDITH RUSSELL: I thought it was pretty selfish because it was a vacation basically.
MS. CLARKE: And how long was he to be gone?
JUDITH RUSSELL: It wasn't clear. I didn't know. But it turned out six months, but I didn't know.
MS. CLARKE: When he came back were there more changes that you saw in Katherine?
JUDITH RUSSELL: No. I mean, I don't recall.
MS. CLARKE: Did you see any changes in Tamerlan's level of intensity in religion?
JUDITH RUSSELL: I think I only saw him one time or so after that. Before he went he had been getting more -- his appearance changed. He grew a beard and his hair got longer and he wore kind of a cap that he hadn't worn before. So before he -- and then when he got back I think I saw him once outside in the yard and he had long -- probably longer hair, beard and hair than when he left.
MS. CLARKE: Now, at some point Katherine herself began to cover?
JUDITH RUSSELL: To cover, uh-huh.
MS. CLARKE: Can you tell the jury about that?
JUDITH RUSSELL: That was when she -- the day that she started was when she was living in Boston in an apartment in her junior year, and that was the day I went up to see her that she was covered -- she warned me that she was going to start covering. But then when I first saw it, that was the day that they told me that she was pregnant.
MS. CLARKE: So you saw your daughter covering, and that was very different?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Yup.
MS. CLARKE: And learned that she was pregnant all in one day?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Correct.
MS. CLARKE: What was your reaction?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Well, you know, it was -- I wasn't against her adopting Islam because there's nothing wrong with Islam, but I just was concerned about the whole package of what came with it as far as, you know, he didn't really have a job, there was no -- she was -- it just seemed like she was sacrificing an awful lot to be in the relationship.
MS. CLARKE: I'm going to just -- you described them a little bit. I'm going to pull up a couple of pictures, if I can, and ask you to tell the jury sort of when she began to go out with Tamerlan.
MS. CLARKE: Your Honor, for the witness only, I suppose, although I don't think there's any objection.
THE COURT: What --
MS. CLARKE: 3404.
Mr. Weinreb?
MR. WEINREB: There's no objection to 3404.
MS. CLARKE: So we can just --
THE COURT: You suggested there's more than one. Why don't we find out.
MS. CLARKE: There's two. And 3401.
MR. WEINREB: No objection to that one either.
THE COURT: All right. So both may be admitted, then.
(Defense Exhibit Nos. 3404 and 3401 received into evidence.)
BY MS. CLARKE:
MS. CLARKE: I'm showing you what's Exhibit 3404. You probably can't see a number on there. Do you see it on the screen? Not the number; the picture.
JUDITH RUSSELL: Yes, the picture.
MS. CLARKE: Can you tell the jury about the timing of that? Or tell the jury first who that is.
JUDITH RUSSELL: That's my daughter Katherine and Tamerlan.
MS. CLARKE: And can you figure out when in her Suffolk years, freshman, sophomore?
JUDITH RUSSELL: It was probably sophomore because I remember she dyed her hair when she was living in the North End for a summer. So it was probably --
MS. CLARKE: So she has blonde hair?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Yeah, she dyed her hair platinum blond.
MS. CLARKE: That wasn't her ordinary hair color?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Nope. But she wanted to do it, and she looked happy. It made her happy.
MS. CLARKE: And when they first began dating, that's what they looked like together?
JUDITH RUSSELL: That's what they looked like, yup.
MS. CLARKE: Let me show you 3401.
And about when is that picture?
JUDITH RUSSELL: I don't know. I don't know. I mean, she's covered and he has his beard so it must have been fairly late. I'm sure the baby was born. I don't know when it was but that's --
MS. CLARKE: Perhaps after he returned from Russia?
JUDITH RUSSELL: No, it would have been before Russia because when he came back, when I saw him, his beard was more. I don't know for a fact, but I don't think -- I think this was at the beginning when he had started the growth.
MS. CLARKE: So this is when you began to see the change in Katherine's appearance and his appearance?
JUDITH RUSSELL: She was covering and he started to grow the body hair and he didn't dress as flashy anymore.
MS. CLARKE: Did he talk to you more about Islam and religion and politics?
JUDITH RUSSELL: He tried to talk about that every time I saw him.
MS. CLARKE: Can you tell us a little bit about that?
JUDITH RUSSELL: I mean, he was always -- from the beginning he always wanted to -- well, he always wanted to talk about how Islam was good, and then over time it just seemed to be more of an obsession or -- it just was really important to him and he wanted to talk about it every time I saw him for the whole time I was seeing him. And I didn't let him, but that's what he tried -- you know, he wanted to.
MS. CLARKE: Other topics than Islam? Politics?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Politics. As far as this country's, you know, politics. About this country's influence and harm to Islamic countries.
MS. CLARKE: Was there any difference in the level of intensity before the trip to Russia and after the trip to Russia? Now we're talking about late 2012.
JUDITH RUSSELL: I would say there was some progression in the time I knew him. But when he got back, I really don't think I saw him more than one time, and that was outside for a few minutes. So in the time I knew him, there was progression of his belief system and obsession or passion, yup.
MS. CLARKE: To the point that you couldn't talk to him?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Pretty much.
MS. CLARKE: Could you derail him from those conversations?
JUDITH RUSSELL: I mean, I tried with humor and just "I don't want to go there" type of thing, so... Yeah, I mean, I didn't engage after a time with it, yup.
MS. CLARKE: Ms. Russell, let me ask you, at some point you heard about the Boston Marathon bombing?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Yup.
MS. CLARKE: Can you tell us where you were when you heard about the Boston Marathon bombing?
JUDITH RUSSELL: I think I was at work. I don't -- I mean, I must have been at work, in my car. I heard it on the radio. I don't remember.
MS. CLARKE: Patriots' Day is a holiday in Massachusetts but not in Rhode Island?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Not in Rhode Island.
MS. CLARKE: The bombing was on a Monday.
JUDITH RUSSELL: Uh-huh.
MS. CLARKE: And at some point during that week before you learned that Tamerlan was killed, did you have any thoughts about Tamerlan's role in the Boston Marathon bombing?
MR. WEINREB: Objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MS. CLARKE:
MS. CLARKE: Well, could you tell us if you considered that Tamerlan could be a suspect?
MR. WEINREB: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MS. CLARKE:
MS. CLARKE: Were you concerned about Tamerlan and the Boston Marathon bombing?
MR. WEINREB: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MS. CLARKE:
MS. CLARKE: Were you concerned about your daughter?
MR. WEINREB: Objection unless it's whether she was injured or not.
THE COURT: No, you may answer that general question.
JUDITH RUSSELL: She was at work that day.
BY MS. CLARKE:
MS. CLARKE: And did you reach out to her to find out --
JUDITH RUSSELL: I did because she was working in the Boston area. I wasn't sure exactly where. So I texted her and asked her if she was all right, and she said she was but she -- and I told her what happened. I think I told her what happened in the text. And she said, "Yeah, I didn't know what was going on. I heard all these" -- she was maybe in Allston. "I heard all these sirens" and, you know, all this stuff going on. But she was at work and she was okay.
MS. CLARKE: And at some point during that week did you learn that Tamerlan had been killed?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Yeah, Friday morning early.
MS. CLARKE: And can you tell us how you learned about that?
JUDITH RUSSELL: I woke up hearing my other daughter crying in the hall, and, you know, I wanted to know what was going on, and she said, "Katie thinks her husband" -- "Katie thinks that Tamerlan's dead." And that was early morning Friday.
MS. CLARKE: And what did you do?
JUDITH RUSSELL: I tried to make sense of it. I talked to Becca. I didn't talk to Katie at that point. And then I went and ran and put the TV on. And at that point I saw pictures and I saw who it was.
MS. CLARKE: Had you seen the pictures --
JUDITH RUSSELL: I saw the pictures on Thursday night.
MS. CLARKE: And what did you think when you saw them then?
JUDITH RUSSELL: I still insist, but I guess I'm wrong, that they didn't -- they were grainy -- I didn't think it was him. I'd never met Jahar, and I didn't think it was Tamerlan.
MS. CLARKE: At that point?
JUDITH RUSSELL: At that point.
MS. CLARKE: Had you had concerns before that point?
MR. WEINREB: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MS. CLARKE:
MS. CLARKE: At the -- Becca, your daughter, receives the telephone call, and then what did you do?
JUDITH RUSSELL: We got in the car to go up to Katie and the baby.
MS. CLARKE: How come?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Because if it was him and his brother was -- you know, the whole thing was -- the whole thing was like horrific, and I knew that we needed to get her out of there safe.
MS. CLARKE: So you left Rhode Island to --
JUDITH RUSSELL: Driving up to go. And then it kind of dawned on me that maybe we wouldn't really be able to get there and help her, so we went to my sister's. And then we called the FBI from there because we weren't -- like I don't know. I was in shock. But we weren't clear if they knew.
MS. CLARKE: If they knew who it was?
So you called -- you called the FBI yourself?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Yup.
MS. CLARKE: And reported what?
JUDITH RUSSELL: That we knew who they were, where they lived.
MS. CLARKE: And were you told to do anything at that point or did you ask --
JUDITH RUSSELL: Well, I said, "I want to get Katie out safely, and that's my priority, and, you know, she'll tell the baby, 'You're going to come' and it'll be -- just, like, be safe." And they said they'd come and escort me up there. So they came and they questioned us, of course, at my sister's, the FBI, and then they brought us up to Cambridge.
MS. CLARKE: Did you tell the FBI what you knew?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Yeah, everything.
MS. CLARKE: And --
JUDITH RUSSELL: Everything I knew, which wasn't much, but I told them, yeah.
MS. CLARKE: So what happened after you talked to the FBI?
JUDITH RUSSELL: They brought us to Cambridge.
MS. CLARKE: And were you interviewed by more police?
JUDITH RUSSELL: They brought us to the Cambridge Police Department, and they talked to us together and separately. I was with my daughter, and then they interviewed me again, questioned me for -- I don't know -- it felt like a long time -- half-hour, 20 minutes. I don't know.
MS. CLARKE: You gave them even the name of Katherine's best friend?
JUDITH RUSSELL: I told them whatever I thought would help.
MS. CLARKE: And who was that best friend?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Gina.
MS. CLARKE: Gina?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Crawford.
MS. CLARKE: How did you get reunited with Katherine?
JUDITH RUSSELL: She was at the Cambridge Police Station with the baby, and they let me take her after that, after we'd been interviewed a couple of times -- I mean twice.
MS. CLARKE: Is the -- what's your relationship with Katherine now?
JUDITH RUSSELL: She really appreciates that we stayed as a family supportive of her overall, so we have a pretty good relationship. I still see her and the baby. And we do.
MS. CLARKE: Is the Katherine that you knew before Tamerlan returning?
JUDITH RUSSELL: She is healing and -- you know, from this experience. Obviously it hasn't been as hard as all the other victims in Boston, but she's getting her life together and is more kind of lighter in spirit and more like the Katie that we knew.
MS. CLARKE: Thank you very much.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. WEINREB:
MR. WEINREB: Good afternoon, Ms. Russell.
JUDITH RUSSELL: Good afternoon.
MR. WEINREB: My name is Bill Weinreb. Would you like a minute or --
MR. WEINREB: No? Okay.
So when you heard that Tamerlan was going to come to your house for the first time, you must have been curious as to what he might be like?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Yeah.
MR. WEINREB: But that meeting was somewhat of a disappointment?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Yes.
MR. WEINREB: He was a big talker. Is that true?
JUDITH RUSSELL: He was a big talker.
MR. WEINREB: And full of himself?
JUDITH RUSSELL: I'd have to say.
MR. WEINREB: He liked to brag a lot about his boxing, about himself?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Yes.
MR. WEINREB: Some people have a very charismatic, magnetic kind of personality, true?
JUDITH RUSSELL: True.
MR. WEINREB: But that was not Tamerlan?
JUDITH RUSSELL: He had a certain -- no, he had a certain charm.
MR. WEINREB: But he didn't pull you in?
JUDITH RUSSELL: No. No.
MR. WEINREB: In fact, you thought that Katherine was making a bad choice by marrying him?
JUDITH RUSSELL: I did.
MR. WEINREB: You thought she was settling. Well, she could have done better, somebody who had maybe more ambitions or more of a work ethic?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Yeah. I mean, I didn't think they were a good match, yeah. Right. I have to agree.
MR. WEINREB: Okay. So you said that Tamerlan liked to talk about religion?
JUDITH RUSSELL: He did.
MR. WEINREB: He liked to talk about how good Islam is?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Uh-huh.
MR. WEINREB: But not in a very interesting way, from your perspective?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Well, I don't think it was -- it was not that it was not an interesting way; it was that it was too much.
MR. WEINREB: Well, so, for example, some people talk about things in a way that kind of draws you in, makes you more interested in what they have to say about it, but with Tamerlan -- is that yes?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Some people are, yes.
MR. WEINREB: But not Tamerlan?
JUDITH RUSSELL: I was not pulled in.
MR. WEINREB: The opposite? With all his talk about it, he just pushed you away, correct?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Yeah, I think -- yeah, I told him I could decide for myself what I wanted to learn about it.
MR. WEINREB: He pushed you to read the Qur'an, for example?
JUDITH RUSSELL: He encouraged me to. I didn't.
MR. WEINREB: You didn't read it, though, right?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Correct.
MR. WEINREB: And he would have liked you to convert, in fact?
JUDITH RUSSELL: I don't know. I mean, I would guess that.
MR. WEINREB: But he certainly wasn't very persuasive about getting you to adopt his religious beliefs?
JUDITH RUSSELL: I could only answer for me. He was very -- he put a lot of effort into it. He brought different books for me to look at and left them with me and then would follow up. And he did not give up easily on talking about it, but I did not want to go there.
MR. WEINREB: And, in fact, you found it annoying?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Well, I did.
MR. WEINREB: It was boring?
JUDITH RUSSELL: It was annoying.
MR. WEINREB: Okay. You finally told him you had had enough at one point?
JUDITH RUSSELL: I don't know if there was a cutoff. I just stopped engaging. I don't think I said, "You may never speak to me about this again"; I would tell him I don't want to hear it about the politics because I don't like politics.
MR. WEINREB: So if he was trying to get you interested in what he had to say, he wasn't very successful about it?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Correct.
MR. WEINREB: When Tamerlan and your daughter were at your house, they seemed like a normal couple, did they not?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Well, I'm not -- what's a normal couple?
MR. WEINREB: Well, they chatted?
JUDITH RUSSELL: They chatted, uh-huh.
MR. WEINREB: They watched movies?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Sometimes. Not much but sometimes.
MR. WEINREB: They joked around from time to time?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Not much, no.
MR. WEINREB: They played with their daughter?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Yeah. Yeah. It's fair to say that.
MR. WEINREB: And when you visited Katherine at the apartment that the Tsarnaevs lived at in Cambridge, it was a small apartment, wasn't it?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Reasonably -- yeah, small.
MR. WEINREB: But a decent one?
JUDITH RUSSELL: It wasn't bad.
MR. WEINREB: It was clean?
JUDITH RUSSELL: It was a lot different than the media presented it, yeah. It was clean.
MR. WEINREB: You actually met the defendant's mother and his sisters at Katherine's baby shower?
JUDITH RUSSELL: I met her at my house -- the three of them at my house one time, at Katherine's baby shower, yes.
MR. WEINREB: Okay. And at least that one time you met them, they all acted normally?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Yup.
MR. WEINREB: You're aware that the -- Tamerlan's sisters moved out of the house at one point?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Uh-huh.
MR. WEINREB: And Katherine told you it was because the mother, their mother, wanted them to wear the head scarf as well?
JUDITH RUSSELL: I don't remember who told me, but I did come -- and I don't remember when I heard that, but at some point, yes, I came to understand that some of the reason for them leaving was religious pressure from the mother.
MR. WEINREB: Okay. And they didn't want to?
JUDITH RUSSELL: I didn't know them. I only met them once. I didn't really know what they wanted.
MR. WEINREB: But that was your understanding?
JUDITH RUSSELL: That seemed to be the inference, you know.
MR. WEINREB: So they just struck out on their own?
JUDITH RUSSELL: I can't comment about what they did. I know they moved out.
MR. WEINREB: You know nobody forced them to stay?
JUDITH RUSSELL: I know they moved out.
MR. WEINREB: But your daughter, she liked Islam?
JUDITH RUSSELL: She seemed to like the religion, yes.
MR. WEINREB: Yeah. You described her as being independent minded?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Uh-huh.
MR. WEINREB: She could even be strong-willed?
JUDITH RUSSELL: That's independent, yup.
MR. WEINREB: But she told you that she was learning about the Muslim religion, and unlike like the defendant and Tamerlan's sisters, she liked the religion?
JUDITH RUSSELL: She seemed to like the religion.
MR. WEINREB: And she learned some more about it, from what you could tell?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Yes.
MR. WEINREB: And eventually she started wearing that head scarf?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Uh-huh.
MR. WEINREB: And, in fact, she still is a practicing Muslim today, correct?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Correct.
MR. WEINREB: And she still covers, as you say?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Correct.
MR. WEINREB: And once in a while you talk to Katherine about her political views?
JUDITH RUSSELL: A little bit.
MR. WEINREB: And this was both before she met Tamerlan and after she met him?
JUDITH RUSSELL: I mean, things come up, yeah.
MR. WEINREB: And, for example, she was against the war in Iraq?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Was she?
MR. WEINREB: Yes.
JUDITH RUSSELL: I don't -- I imagine so. I don't remember a specific conversation about it.
MR. WEINREB: Okay. But she didn't seem to have very strong political views. Would that be correct?
JUDITH RUSSELL: I don't really talk politics with anyone. I don't know.
MR. WEINREB: Okay. So she didn't have strong enough views or she'd talk to you about it all the time?
JUDITH RUSSELL: She did not talk to me about it all the time, no.
MR. WEINREB: She didn't talk about religion much?
MR. WEINREB: She didn't really seem to have strong views about it either?
JUDITH RUSSELL: I think she knew that I didn't really want to talk about it too much so I don't know -- I can't comment on her views.
MR. WEINREB: Well, for example, she encouraged you to read Islam for Dummies to learn about it?
JUDITH RUSSELL: I had that book on my shelf for a while. I didn't know where I got it. I don't know if she encouraged me to read it.
MR. WEINREB: But she didn't try to convert you or anything?
MR. WEINREB: In fact, she herself stopped going to mosque after her baby was born?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Uh-huh.
MR. WEINREB: You have to say yes or no.
JUDITH RUSSELL: Yes.
MR. WEINREB: And so for years she didn't go?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Pardon?
MR. WEINREB: And so for years after her baby was born she didn't go?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Correct. Uh-huh.
MR. WEINREB: Your daughter worked very long hours, didn't she?
JUDITH RUSSELL: She did.
MR. WEINREB: And so she didn't have a lot of time to socialize --
JUDITH RUSSELL: Correct.
MR. WEINREB: -- correct?
But she still kept in touch with you?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Uh-huh.
MR. WEINREB: And with her dad?
JUDITH RUSSELL: (Nonverbal response.)
MR. WEINREB: And with her aunt?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Yes.
MR. WEINREB: And with her sisters?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Texts are a wonderful way to keep in touch.
MR. WEINREB: And her friends -- her friend Gina Crawford?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Correct.
MR. WEINREB: And when you say that she's now getting back to the Katherine you once knew, you mean the Katherine who is not bereft by the loss of her husband and everything that happened at the marathon?
JUDITH RUSSELL: More than that. More than that.
MR. WEINREB: All right. But, in fact, that experience affected her the way it would affect anybody?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Correct.
MR. WEINREB: Correct? And she's recovering from it?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Yes.
MR. WEINREB: No further questions.
MS. CLARKE: Just a couple.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
MS. CLARKE: Thank you.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. CLARKE:
MS. CLARKE: Mr. Weinreb asked you about whether you spent time with Tamerlan's mother and sisters at the baby shower?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Right. At the baby shower.
MS. CLARKE: So there was a baby shower. I guess we hadn't talked about that. There was a baby shower?
JUDITH RUSSELL: In August.
MS. CLARKE: At your house?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Uh-huh.
MS. CLARKE: And did you spend any time with Zubeidat, Tamerlan's --
JUDITH RUSSELL: I sat down for a few minutes with her. But beyond that, she sat kind of aside at the kitchen table, and I was busy in the living room, which is open to the kitchen.
MS. CLARKE: You were the host?
JUDITH RUSSELL: Yeah, I was the host.
MS. CLARKE: And did you have any impressions of Zubeidat?
JUDITH RUSSELL: I did, but it's a little -- I don't know how -- it was years ago and I don't remember, but it just seemed a little funny because she seemed a little bit like she was the queen, and like sitting there the whole time and then people came up and took turns talking to her. And I think people were polite, but I think there was some element like she was the queen at the baby shower, like wanting the attention or getting the attention or removed from everyone somehow.
MS. CLARKE: It struck you as unusual?
JUDITH RUSSELL: A little funny, yeah.
MS. CLARKE: And the prosecutor also asked you is the -- when I asked you the question about is Katherine returning to the Katherine that you knew, and you said that it's more than just getting over what happened with the marathon bombing.
JUDITH RUSSELL: Yeah, in her relationship with Tamerlan she became more serious, focus -- kind of isolated. So that is part of what I meant.
MS. CLARKE: So you see her becoming less isolated --
JUDITH RUSSELL: Less serious, less -- that's all I can think to say.
MS. CLARKE: Thank you. I have no further questions. Thank you very much.
THE COURT: Anything else?
All right. Thank you, Ms. Russell. You may step down.
JUDITH RUSSELL: Thank you.
(The witness is excused.)
MS. CLARKE: Your Honor, next we would call Gina Crawford.
Your Honor, before Ms. Crawford gets on the stand, may we approach?
THE COURT: All right.