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2015 Federal TrialtranscripttranscriptGina Crawford — Direct - Day 53 - 2015 Federal TrialDefense witness Gina Crawford described changes in Katherine Tsarnaev’s religious focus and read text messages from April 2013. The court limited questions about Crawford’s reaction to the brothers’ involvement; the prosecution asked no questions.
Aloke ChakravartyWilliam D. WeinrebJudy ClarkeMiriam ConradTimothy G. WatkinsGeorge A. O'Toole Jr.Gina CrawfordMS. CLARKETHE COURTMR. CHAKRAVARTYMR. WEINREBCourt ClerkGina CrawfordMR. WATKINSMS. CONRADsidebarproceduraldirect
2015 Federal Trial/Day 53/April 27, 2015
12 pages·8 witnesses·2,401 lines
The defense sought life imprisonment in its opening and presented testimony about Tamerlan's behavior, family relationships, and digital records. Cross-examination explored witnesses' limited knowledge of Dzhokhar and the brothers' relationship.
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Russell Proffer and Crawford Testimony Preview
sidebarsidebarRussell Proffer and Crawford Testimony Preview

(Discussion at sidebar and out of the hearing of the jury:)

MS. CLARKE: Judge, before we get too far away from Ms. Russell, I just want to make a showing as to what I was trying to inquire about. During the week, between the Monday and the Friday, at some point Ms. Russell thought for a moment that it could have been Tamerlan that bombed the Boston Marathon, and the reason she thought that was because he had become intensely radical in his views of Islam and politics, and she was aware that the FBI had interviewed him at some point.

So she had these immediate concerns, and then she pushed them out of her head because she thought how horrible could it be that she could have that thought about him, her own son-in-law. So that was the extent of the testimony that I was trying to elicit --

MS. CLARKE: -- 16 weeks to Sunday.

MR. CHAKRAVARTY: While we're here, I'd like to know whether -- concerning Ms. Crawford, whether there's going to be testimony about domestic violence or whether it will be a variety of statements that are hearsay.

MS. CLARKE: I believe she heard about it from -- I think she heard about it from Katherine.

MR. CHAKRAVARTY: I'm not sure --

MR. WEINREB: Katherine never --

MR. CHAKRAVARTY: No, she never admitted it.

MR. WEINREB: Katherine insisted there was never any domestic violence, so she didn't hear it from her.

MS. CLARKE: It wasn't something I was going to ask her about, but it's a good idea. She knew the roommates and would refer to that, but I don't think I'm going to get into it.

THE COURT: Any issue with exhibits that you might have?

MS. CLARKE: I don't think so. There's --

THE COURT: The list says there's photographs.

MS. CLARKE: There's photographs.

MR. CHAKRAVARTY: With regard to some of the texts, the texts were taken by -- written down by an FBI agent during the course of the interview, and the last few --

MS. CLARKE: Here's what I've got, Judge. This series of texts were on the 15th of April, and then the last two texts were on the -- I think when Tamerlan was --

MR. CHAKRAVARTY: After he was discovered, but that's not clear from the body of the --

MS. CLARKE: But I think she'll do it.

MR. CHAKRAVARTY: Oh, she will?

MS. CLARKE: Yeah. And that's how I expect to show it.

ProceduralProc.Return to Open Court Before Crawford's Testimony

(In open court:)

DirectDirectDirect Examination - Gina Crawford Gina Crawford Judy Clarke

GINA CRAWFORD, duly sworn

COURT CLERK: State your name, spell your last name for the record, keep your voice up and speak into the mic.

GINA CRAWFORD: Okay. Gina Crawford, G-I-N-A C-R-A-W-F-0-R-D.

DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. CLARKE:

MS. CLARKE: Good afternoon.

MS. CLARKE: I'm over here.

Ms. Crawford, can you tell the jury where you live? Not your address but the state.

GINA CRAWFORD: I live in Rhode Island.

MS. CLARKE: And are you employed?

MS. CLARKE: What do you do?

GINA CRAWFORD: I'm a barista at Starbucks. I also waitress and I nanny.

MS. CLARKE: So you have three jobs?

MS. CLARKE: And how do you work all that together?

GINA CRAWFORD: I try -- I fit it in. I'm busy, but it works.

MS. CLARKE: All right. Do you know Katherine Tsarnaev?

MS. CLARKE: And how do you know her?

GINA CRAWFORD: We met in elementary school and have been friends since.

MS. CLARKE: Very close friends?

MS. CLARKE: And do you --

GINA CRAWFORD: Best friends.

MS. CLARKE: And do you call Katherine -- what name do you call her?

GINA CRAWFORD: I call her "Katie."

MS. CLARKE: "Katie." Have you always called her "Katie"?

MS. CLARKE: Would you describe your relationship as best friends?

MS. CLARKE: For a long time.

GINA CRAWFORD: For a long time.

MS. CLARKE: Did you know Tamerlan Tsarnaev?

GINA CRAWFORD: I met him once.

MS. CLARKE: Only once?

MS. CLARKE: In the time that Katherine knew him?

MS. CLARKE: Do you know Jahar Tsarnaev?

MS. CLARKE: Okay. So you said you went to elementary school together?

MS. CLARKE: Can you just tell us a little bit about that. What schools where?

GINA CRAWFORD: We went to Quidnessett Elementary School and then Davisville Middle School and North Kingstown High School.

MS. CLARKE: And did both of your families live in North Kingstown?

GINA CRAWFORD: Yes, we lived a street over. A street next to each other.

MS. CLARKE: So were your families close?

GINA CRAWFORD: Yes, still are.

MS. CLARKE: And your mom and Katie's mom are good friends?

GINA CRAWFORD: Really good friends.

MS. CLARKE: Do you remember when you graduated from high school?

MS. CLARKE: Can you describe the Katie that you knew in high school days?

GINA CRAWFORD: In high school? She was always really fun to hang around with. We would go shopping, watch movies. She was really artsy. Just social.

MS. CLARKE: Did you -- was she religious?

GINA CRAWFORD: No, not at all.

MS. CLARKE: Did you and Katie go to college together?

MS. CLARKE: Where did she go and where did you go?

GINA CRAWFORD: She went to Suffolk in Boston, and I went to University of Rhode Island.

MS. CLARKE: Did you remain in contact when you went to different colleges?

MS. CLARKE: How was that?

GINA CRAWFORD: Let's see. We'd see each other every few months or so, talk on the phone all the time.

MS. CLARKE: So you kept in contact?

GINA CRAWFORD: Kept in contact, yes.

MS. CLARKE: I'm going to -- did you come up to Boston to visit Katie?

MS. CLARKE: I'm going to show you a couple of pictures just so you can tell us --

MS. CLARKE: And I believe there's no objection to these, your Honor. 3437A and 3437B.

If I could move their admission.

THE COURT: Okay. I understand there's no objection.

MR. CHAKRAVARTY: No objection.

THE COURT: All right. They'll be admitted.

(Defense Exhibit Nos. 3437A and 3437B received into evidence.)

BY MS. CLARKE:

MS. CLARKE: All right. I'm going to show you, I think, 3437A. Can you see that okay? Can you describe who's in that picture?

GINA CRAWFORD: That is myself and Katie.

MS. CLARKE: You can touch the screen and it will -- you can draw a circle around it with your finger.

Can you tell us which one's you and which one's Katie?

GINA CRAWFORD: Me and Katie (indicating).

MS. CLARKE: All right. And do you remember the occasion?

MS. CLARKE: Can you tell us about it?

GINA CRAWFORD: That was -- we were getting ready to go -- I had met her in Boston, and we were getting ready to go out for a night.

MS. CLARKE: Freshman year, sophomore year, do you remember?

GINA CRAWFORD: That was freshman year.

MS. CLARKE: And let me pull up, while we're at it, 3437B. Is that another picture of you and Katie?

MS. CLARKE: Is that that same night?

GINA CRAWFORD: Yes, it was.

MS. CLARKE: So that was a weekend that you came up to -- or down to or over to Boston?

MS. CLARKE: Okay. All right.

When did you first hear the name "Tamerlan Tsarnaev" from Katie?

GINA CRAWFORD: It must have been freshman year, like the middle of freshman -- yeah, winter.

MS. CLARKE: And in what context did you hear it in?

GINA CRAWFORD: She just told me she had met someone at a club, and I didn't -- I don't know. I didn't take it to be anything serious yet but that was...

MS. CLARKE: Did it become serious?

GINA CRAWFORD: They were having fun.

MS. CLARKE: Did it become serious?

MS. CLARKE: And how did you find out about that?

GINA CRAWFORD: Let's see. I knew it was pretty serious when she got pregnant.

MS. CLARKE: Well, that was pretty serious.

(Laughter.)

MS. CLARKE: Did she talk to you about him before she got pregnant?

MS. CLARKE: So, I mean, they dated a couple of years before she got pregnant?

MS. CLARKE: Was it an on-again/off-again relationship or a fairly constant relationship?

GINA CRAWFORD: Yeah, it was on-again/off-again.

MS. CLARKE: And can you describe that just a little bit?

GINA CRAWFORD: He cheated on her a few times and she found out.

MS. CLARKE: Broke up?

GINA CRAWFORD: Broke up with him, yeah. I think they broke up for six months or so.

MS. CLARKE: What did she say about him?

GINA CRAWFORD: She said he was a really fun person. I didn't really --

MS. CLARKE: Did she introduce you to him before she got pregnant?

MS. CLARKE: All right. At some point did that strike you as unusual?

MS. CLARKE: And did you keep saying you wanted to meet him or no?

GINA CRAWFORD: Yes. I tried many times.

MS. CLARKE: And what did Katie say?

GINA CRAWFORD: Well, she had tried too. Just one time when I was in -- when I was visiting in Boston, and she had called him and he's like, "Oh, but you're with your friend so that's your time." So I took it to be as they kept their lives separate.

MS. CLARKE: And he didn't want to meet you?

GINA CRAWFORD: And he didn't want to meet me.

MS. CLARKE: At some point did you see Katie develop an interest in Islam?

MS. CLARKE: And can you tell us a little bit about that?

GINA CRAWFORD: That was -- I knew she was really becoming serious about it when she became pregnant and started covering, but she had been reading the Qur'an and --

MS. CLARKE: Did she tell you why?

GINA CRAWFORD: Why she had --

MS. CLARKE: Gotten interested in Islam?

GINA CRAWFORD: Because Tamerlan was Muslim.

MS. CLARKE: And had he wanted her to develop that interest? Did you know anything about that?

GINA CRAWFORD: I took it as that she definitely was interested as well, but he -- I thought he put that idea in her head, I guess.

MS. CLARKE: Did Katie finish her school at Suffolk?

GINA CRAWFORD: She finished her junior year and then dropped out.

MS. CLARKE: And do you know why?

GINA CRAWFORD: Because she was pregnant.

MS. CLARKE: And did she and Tamerlan get married?

MS. CLARKE: Were you invited to the wedding?

MS. CLARKE: Was that a disappointment to you?

GINA CRAWFORD: Yes, but it wasn't a big wedding, it was just them, so I just thought it was how the culture was.

MS. CLARKE: Had you expected to be at your best friend's wedding one day?

MS. CLARKE: Where did Katie live after she got pregnant?

GINA CRAWFORD: She was in Boston, the North End, I think.

MS. CLARKE: Until she finished her junior year?

MS. CLARKE: And then where did she move?

GINA CRAWFORD: After she had Zahira she moved home, back to Rhode Island.

MS. CLARKE: So she was living in Rhode Island when she had Zahira?

MS. CLARKE: At some point did you meet Tamerlan's mother?

MS. CLARKE: And can you tell us a little bit about that?

GINA CRAWFORD: We were taking care of Ziaudy, Ailina's son, and she had come to drop him off and pick him up.

MS. CLARKE: And so you met her?

MS. CLARKE: And her name? Zubeidat?

MS. CLARKE: Did you go to a baby shower for Katie in Rhode Island?

GINA CRAWFORD: Yes, I did.

MS. CLARKE: At Katie's mom's house?

MS. CLARKE: And was Zubeidat at that baby shower?

MS. CLARKE: Can you tell us a little bit about her there?

GINA CRAWFORD: She was very intense, very -- came off as kind of intimidating.

MS. CLARKE: What do you mean when you say "intimidating"?

GINA CRAWFORD: She spoke a lot about her religion and --

MS. CLARKE: At the baby shower?

GINA CRAWFORD: Yes. And how she thought it should be.

MS. CLARKE: And you described her as "intense"?

MS. CLARKE: Can you tell us a little bit more about that?

GINA CRAWFORD: I remember a few people got into -- not -- it wasn't an argument, really, but it was a heated discussion about Islam, and she was just very set in her opinions.

MS. CLARKE: Was that uncomfortable?

MS. CLARKE: Did you actually talk to her about Islam or avoid the discussion?

GINA CRAWFORD: I kind of avoided it with her.

MS. CLARKE: Do you remember when Zahira was born?

MS. CLARKE: Were you there?

MS. CLARKE: Did you come visit in the hospital?

GINA CRAWFORD: Not in the hospital.

MS. CLARKE: When did you first, then, see Katie and Zahira?

GINA CRAWFORD: A couple of days after she'd come home.

MS. CLARKE: And did you meet Tamerlan then?

MS. CLARKE: When did you meet Tamerlan?

GINA CRAWFORD: He -- I was at work at Starbucks and he came in to get coffees for himself and Katie.

MS. CLARKE: And how did you know it was Tamerlan?

GINA CRAWFORD: I'd seen pictures and he just looked -- I mean, I knew it was him.

MS. CLARKE: And did he introduce himself?

GINA CRAWFORD: Not -- no, I think I was the first one to say, "Oh, you're Tamerlan."

MS. CLARKE: So is that it?

GINA CRAWFORD: Yeah. I said, "It was nice to finally meet you, and hope to see more," but that was pretty much it.

MS. CLARKE: And did you ever see more of him?

MS. CLARKE: Katie at some point moved back to Cambridge with Zahira?

MS. CLARKE: Do you remember when that happened? Not year-wise, but do you remember when she moved back to Cambridge?

GINA CRAWFORD: Yeah, it was about -- I think like ten months after Zahira was born.

MS. CLARKE: And did you ever come and visit Katie in Cambridge after Zahira was born?

MS. CLARKE: Can you tell us about that?

GINA CRAWFORD: I came, and no one else at the house was there, and we just walked around Boston and I got to see where she lived.

MS. CLARKE: How often did you visit her in Cambridge after she came back with Zahira?

GINA CRAWFORD: It was just that once.

MS. CLARKE: And you didn't see Tamerlan on that visit either?

MS. CLARKE: Did you visit Katie at all after that first time in Cambridge? I mean, did you see her in Boston or in Cambridge?

GINA CRAWFORD: Not in Boston.

MS. CLARKE: Where, then?

GINA CRAWFORD: She had come home a few times back to Rhode Island.

MS. CLARKE: Bringing the baby with her?

MS. CLARKE: And did Tamerlan come?

MS. CLARKE: Did you get to see him there?

MS. CLARKE: Did you try to spend time with them as a couple?

GINA CRAWFORD: I tried, yeah. And Katie knew that I would like to, but it never happened.

MS. CLARKE: At some point did you learn about a trip that Tamerlan took to Russia?

MS. CLARKE: And do you remember when that was? 2012?

GINA CRAWFORD: Around then, yes.

MS. CLARKE: What was your understanding from Katie as to why Tamerlan went to Russia?

GINA CRAWFORD: I wasn't sure exactly, but I thought that he had gone to be with his dad, do something over there. I didn't know what exactly.

MS. CLARKE: While he was gone did you get to spend more time with Katie?

MS. CLARKE: And when he came back, did you notice any change in Katie?

MS. CLARKE: Can you tell us about that?

GINA CRAWFORD: She became more intense into Islam, would speak about it all the time. Like all the conversations we had would always lead there. She would try and get me to read about it and gave me a few books on, like, an introduction to Islam. And I watched a few lectures on YouTube.

MS. CLARKE: Because she asked you to?

MS. CLARKE: And what was your reaction to all of that?

GINA CRAWFORD: I just -- I mean, it's a lot to think about. I thought it was interesting to learn about it.

MS. CLARKE: Did you want to be converted?

MS. CLARKE: And did you tell Katie to stop talking to you about it?

GINA CRAWFORD: I never really told her to stop. It was just -- I mean, that was her life, so...

MS. CLARKE: But there was a growing intensity, it sounds like?

MS. CLARKE: Was that concerning to you?

GINA CRAWFORD: A little bit.

MS. CLARKE: How come?

GINA CRAWFORD: Just because it became most of what we talked about, and I thought there was more to life than that.

MS. CLARKE: At some point you heard about the bombing of the Boston Marathon, right?

MS. CLARKE: And did you have contact with Katie that day?

GINA CRAWFORD: Yes, I texted her.

MS. CLARKE: Let me pull up -- and I don't think there's an objection to 3436A. Is that correct?

MR. CHAKRAVARTY: That's correct. No objection.

(Defense Exhibit No. 3436A received into evidence.)

BY MS. CLARKE:

MS. CLARKE: I'm going to show you a document, and I think we reviewed this together. And can you tell the jury what there is? This is a summary of something?

GINA CRAWFORD: Yes, this is what we said the day that it happened. And I was just asking if everybody was okay.

MS. CLARKE: These are texts between you and Katie on the 15th of April 2013?

GINA CRAWFORD: Yes, the day it happened.

MS. CLARKE: And can I get you to read them for the jury? Can you see them okay? Can you see them okay?

MS. CLARKE: Can I get you to read them and tell who's saying what?

GINA CRAWFORD: I said, "Hey. You okay?" And she says, "Yes, I'm fine. I'm at work with Zahira. Thanks." And then she says, "I'm like eight miles from Boston for work. Yeah, it's crazy."

And then I say, "I can't believe it." I say, "Everyone you know okay? People are idiots. I'd say harsh words but not to you."

And she says, "Yeah, as far as I know. Tamerlan was home in Cambridge." And then I say, "Okay. Good."

And then Katie says, "Hmm, well, that's a long story."

And I say, "Ha ha. Touché, touché." Then Katie says, "Although a lot more people are killed every day in Syria and other places. Innocent people."

And I say, "Yeah, our world is messed up. People are."

MS. CLARKE: When you got this text back from Katie, what did you think?

GINA CRAWFORD: I thought that it was strange that she was bringing that up in this situation, but she was always very into politics, so I knew -- I mean, she kept up with the world, what was going on in the world, so...

MS. CLARKE: And had she had conversations with you as part of this growing intensity about these kinds of topics?

GINA CRAWFORD: Not so much about Syria.

MS. CLARKE: But international politics?

GINA CRAWFORD: But international politics, yes.

MS. CLARKE: You had another couple of texts with Katie once you found out about Tamerlan being killed?

MS. CLARKE: I'm going to show you 3436B. And that was on the Friday, the 19th of April?

MS. CLARKE: And these are texts you actually provided to the FBI. Is that correct?

MS. CLARKE: The texts we've already read as well as this?

MS. CLARKE: Can you read for the jury what you said to Katie by text?

GINA CRAWFORD: I said, "I'm here for you if you need me, Katie. I love you." And I said, "We don't have to say anything. I just want to hug you."

MS. CLARKE: Did you have any response from Katie to those texts?

MS. CLARKE: What did you think when you found out Tamerlan was involved?

MR. CHAKRAVARTY: Objection, your Honor.

THE COURT: Sustained.

BY MS. CLARKE:

MS. CLARKE: What did you think when you found out that Katie's husband and her husband's brother were the bombers of the Boston Marathon?

MR. CHAKRAVARTY: Objection, your Honor.

THE COURT: Sustained.

BY MS. CLARKE:

MS. CLARKE: Have you seen Katie since that -- these texts?

MS. CLARKE: And have you spent time with her?

MS. CLARKE: And is the Katie that you knew before --

MR. CHAKRAVARTY: Objection to the leading nature, your Honor.

THE COURT: I haven't heard the question yet.

MS. CLARKE: Maybe we should write one together.

BY MS. CLARKE:

MS. CLARKE: Have you seen changes in Katie in the last few months?

MS. CLARKE: And can you tell us what those are?

MR. CHAKRAVARTY: Objection to relevance, to changes in the last few months, your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled.

You may answer it. Go ahead.

GINA CRAWFORD: I notice she's -- I mean, it's kind of back to how it was before everything got so intense with her, with the religion.

BY MS. CLARKE:

MS. CLARKE: Is she still covering?

MS. CLARKE: But you see a return to the Katie of pre-intense Islam?

MS. CLARKE: And can you describe what you mean by that?

GINA CRAWFORD: We don't -- she doesn't try and force me to learn about it, we don't talk about it nearly as much, and it's just we have our own lives that we talk about.

MS. CLARKE: You were interviewed by the FBI?

MS. CLARKE: How many times?

MS. CLARKE: And did you answer their questions?

MS. CLARKE: And you also testified before the grand jury?

MS. CLARKE: Subpoenaed by the prosecution?

MS. CLARKE: Thank you very much.

MR. CHAKRAVARTY: No questions, your Honor.

THE COURT: No questions? All right. Thank you, Ms. Crawford. You may step down.

(The witness is excused.)

MR. WATKINS: Your Honor, the defendant would call John Curran.

(Counsel confer off the record.)

MS. CONRAD: The defense calls Robert Ponte, P-O-N-T-E.

(The unidentified witness is sworn.)

MS. CONRAD: Sorry, your Honor. That isn't Mr. Ponte; that's Mr. Curran, so...

MS. CLARKE: Maybe I can help in the hallway.

MS. CONRAD: I was wondering why I didn't recognize him.

(Pause.)

THE COURT: It's been a long day.

(Laughter.)

MS. CONRAD: We have to work on our hand signals better.

(Pause.)

MS. CONRAD: That's better. The defense now calls Robert Ponte.

Continue to next page12.Robert Ponte — Direct/Cross