6.Michel Reynolds — Cross/Redirect/Recross (Part 2)
424 linesCROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. WEINREB:
MR. WEINREB: Good afternoon, Professor Reynolds.
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Good afternoon.
MR. WEINREB: You began by telling us the history of Chechnya going back a thousand years.
MICHEL REYNOLDS: A little bit, yes, very briefly.
MR. WEINREB: And you said that, among other things, it didn't have a government; there was no police, no titles to property?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: I didn't say there was no titles to property. I did say there was no centralized police force or centralized government, correct.
MR. WEINREB: And that was true in the United States for thousands of years before the colonists arrived here?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: I'm not an expert on U.S. history.
MR. WEINREB: Okay. But you're aware there was an American Indian population that lived here without a central government and without a centralized police force?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: I can't tell you how the American Indian tribes were organized.
MR. WEINREB: Okay. That's fine. I guess what I'm really getting at here is the world has changed a lot over the past few thousand years, hasn't it?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Yes, it has, but I would point out that Chechnya --
MR. WEINREB: Well, that's fine. Let me move on to the next question, then.
MICHEL REYNOLDS: That's a relative statement, if it's changed or hasn't changed.
MR. WEINREB: Chechnya itself has changed in significant ways since -- in the past few thousand years?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: By "Chechnya," do you mean the society or do you mean the physical -- the urbanization of Chechnya, for example?
MR. WEINREB: Well, you told us that in 1859 it was first subdued by the Russian government?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: That's correct, yes.
MR. WEINREB: So that was a big change for Chechnya?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Yes, it was.
MR. WEINREB: And it changed even more dramatically during World War II?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Yes.
MR. WEINREB: Now, when it was subdued by the Russian government for the first time in 1859, that was 100 years ago?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Correct.
MR. WEINREB: And World War II, that ended about 70 years ago?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: That's correct.
MR. WEINREB: And it's undergone significant changes between World War II and today?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: When you stay "it," I guess, do you mean the Chechen culture or do you mean the Chechen people? Do you mean the landscape of Chechnya?
MR. WEINREB: I guess all I'm asking you is that you said that there were big developments in Chechnya between World War II and today. There were two wars?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Certainly, yes.
MR. WEINREB: And there's been back-and-forth with the Russian government?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Yes.
MR. WEINREB: Anzor Tsarnaev, the defendant's father, he wasn't born or raised in Chechnya, was he?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: I don't believe so.
MR. WEINREB: And his older brother, Alvi Tsarnaev, or Alvi Tsarni, he wasn't born or raised in Chechnya either, correct?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: That's correct.
MR. WEINREB: And his younger brother, Ruslan Tsarni, was not born or raised in Chechnya.
MICHEL REYNOLDS: As far as -- I'm willing to -- I have no reason to disagree with that statement.
MR. WEINREB: Okay. Zubeidat Tsarnaev, she was not born or raised in Chechnya?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: No, she was born and raised in Dagestan, I believe.
MR. WEINREB: Tamerlan Tsarnaev was not born or raised in Chechnya?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: No, he was not.
MR. WEINREB: Bella Tsarnaev, the defendant's oldest of the two sisters, was not born or raised in Chechnya?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Correct.
MR. WEINREB: Ailina Tsarnaev, his other sister, she was not born or raised in Chechnya?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: No, I...
MR. WEINREB: When families of Chechen heritage move to the United States, sometimes they bring their traditions with them, and sometimes they leave them behind. Is that fair to say?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Most likely that's the case, yes.
MR. WEINREB: They may bring some traditions with them and leave others behind?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: That's correct, most likely.
MR. WEINREB: Members of the family may adopt the customs of the country that they've moved to?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Correct.
MR. WEINREB: And that's especially true if they come here as children?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: It's likely, yes.
MR. WEINREB: That's a classic immigrant story, isn't it?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Well, it may be one of many classic immigrant stories. I don't know that there's just one.
MR. WEINREB: You followed the news of the Boston Marathon bombings as they occurred?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Yes, I did.
MR. WEINREB: You also followed the news of Tamerlan Tsarnaev's capture and his death and Dzhokhar Tsarnaev's arrest?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Yes.
MR. WEINREB: So it must have intrigued you when you first heard that they were of Chechen background?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Yes, it did.
MR. WEINREB: Because of your professional interest in that?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Yes.
MR. WEINREB: And you researched everything you could about them at that point. Would that be fair to say?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Yes, I did a fair bit of research, correct.
MR. WEINREB: And then you were eventually retained by the defense to be an expert in this case.
MICHEL REYNOLDS: That's correct.
MR. WEINREB: How did that come about?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: I was contacted by the defense back in July, I think, of last year.
MR. WEINREB: July of 2014?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Yes.
MR. WEINREB: Did they discuss the case with you?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Yes.
MR. WEINREB: You know in a general way what they're seeking to prove here at this hearing?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Yes, I do.
MR. WEINREB: But before then --
MR. BRUCK: I think this goes to --
THE COURT: I think it was okay. It could have gone further, and it apparently won't.
BY MR. WEINREB:
MR. WEINREB: Before July 2014, back in May of 2013, you wrote an article about the Tsarnaevs.
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Correct.
MR. WEINREB: And that was just a few weeks after the bombings occurred?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Correct.
MR. WEINREB: And that was before you met the defense?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Correct.
MR. WEINREB: And before you --
MICHEL REYNOLDS: I have not met the defendant, I should point out.
MR. WEINREB: I didn't say "the defendant." I said "the defense," but I meant the attorneys.
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Yes.
MR. WEINREB: And that was before they talked to you about what they were trying to prove here today?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Yes.
MR. WEINREB: I would like to show you a copy of that article.
MR. WEINREB: It's Exhibit 1671 for identification.
MR. WEINREB: Do you recognize this?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Yes, I do.
MR. WEINREB: What is it?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: It's an article that I wrote for the Foreign Policy Research Institute in Philadelphia.
MR. WEINREB: Could you tell us what it's called?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: It's called "The Northern Caucasus, the Tsarnaevs, and Us."
MR. WEINREB: Your Honor, I'm going to be asking the witness a few questions about this and about a few quotations in it, and to facilitate that, I would like to put it on the screen just as a chalk. Can we do that?
MR. BRUCK: I think we'd better know before it goes onto the screen what areas he plans to put up, so I would object.
THE COURT: Yeah.
MR. WEINREB: That's fine. I'll do that.
(Pause.)
MR. WEINREB: Essentially, your Honor, the chalks are just sentences from the article that I want to ask the witness about, prior statements.
(Pause.)
MR. BRUCK: If your Honor please, there is no reason to be showing prior statements to the jury. He can use this to impeach or to examine the witness, but the statements themselves do not go to the jury.
MR. WEINREB: Your Honor, I'm just using it as a chalk. The matters --
MR. BRUCK: It doesn't matter.
THE COURT: Let's see how it goes without it. I think it might be enough for the witness to have it, and perhaps the oral examination is enough. If that's trouble, we can adjust.
MR. WEINREB: Can we approach on this to explain my reasons further?
THE COURT: All right.
(Discussion at sidebar and out of the hearing of the jury:)
MR. WEINREB: Basically, the issue with it is just that, with respect to several of the things, the sentences are not written for -- the sentences are written like for a fellow professor, graduate students. Some of them are a little more complicated. If I read them, I just have a feeling that -- it's basically an aid to the jury in taking a very long sentence with a lot of three- and four-syllable words in it and making it easier for them to remember what the sentence is by the time I'm done asking the question.
MR. BRUCK: What he's doing is taking shards of this out of context. The witness's explanation is not going to be on --
MR. WEINREB: This is cross-examination.
MR. BRUCK: Yes, I know. But there's no reason why the jury should have the out-of-context bits and pieces on the screen in front of them and then have to rely --
MR. WEINREB: Your Honor, what I'm putting on the screen is something that he would say is his statement and something that he agrees with.
THE COURT: Well, I think I'd rather -- at least at the beginning, and we'll see whether it doesn't work this way -- have the jury paying attention to what he says rather than what they're reading on the screen, and I think that's a better way to do it. If it appears that that's not working, we can consider it.
MR. WEINREB: I'm not sure how we're going to know if it's working or not.
THE COURT: I don't know. If it seems to be confusing.
MS. CONRAD: May I just point out that the Court, at the government's suggestion, when we read the 302s of Kartashov and so forth in, the jury didn't look at those as they were following -- as they were being read, so I don't see why the government gets to show --
THE COURT: Okay.
(In open court:)
BY MR. WEINREB:
MR. WEINREB: Professor Reynolds, I'd like to ask you some questions about some of the things you wrote in that article. The very first sentence of it, I believe, you write, "The identification of two young Chechen males as the alleged perpetrators of bombing of the Boston Marathon has caused Americans to ask a great many questions about the alleged perpetrators. Those questions range from the ineffable - what could drive the brothers, Tamerlan and Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, to commit such willful acts of violence? - to the seemingly straightforward - where is Chechnya?" Do you remember writing that?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Yes.
MR. WEINREB: And when you wrote "Those questions range from the ineffable - what could drive the brothers to commit such willful acts of violence," "ineffable" in that context means ultimately unexplainable, unknowable, correct?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Difficult to understand, correct.
MR. WEINREB: And then I think a little further down on that page you wrote, "To be sure, the actions of any individual or even group of individuals can never be reduced to identity. Identity most assuredly is not destiny." Correct?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: That is correct.
MR. WEINREB: And you agree with that today?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: I would say that it certainly doesn't explain everything, no.
MR. WEINREB: Identity is not destiny?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Correct.
MR. WEINREB: Being born in Chechnya doesn't make you a murderer?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Of course not.
MR. WEINREB: Being born Chechen doesn't make you a murderer?
MR. WEINREB: Like anyone else, a Chechen who murders chooses to become a murderer?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Correct. Or anyone else, for that matter.
MR. WEINREB: Right. And you're not here to say that a Chechen terrorist is less morally culpable for his crimes than any other terrorists?
MR. BRUCK: This is all argumentative, your Honor.
THE COURT: Overruled.
You may have that.
MICHEL REYNOLDS: I would say that the -- in order to understand someone's actions, it might be useful to look at the context in which they were living and operating, including the culture in which they were raised and grew up and with which they identify.
BY MR. WEINREB:
MR. WEINREB: My question was a different question. Okay? My question was: You're not here to say that a Chechen terrorist is less morally culpable for his crimes than other terrorists?
MR. BRUCK: Objection. Moral culpability? This is not --
THE COURT: Overruled. Overruled.
BY MR. WEINREB:
MR. WEINREB: Are you? Are you here to say that a Chechen terrorist is less morally culpable than other terrorists for their crimes?
MR. WEINREB: On a different page you said, "The experience of Chechnya in the 1990s ... profoundly affected Chechen cultural norms." Correct?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Yes, I believe I wrote that. If you could tell me which page -- okay. Here it is. I found it. Yes.
MR. WEINREB: Okay. "Cultural norms," that's what's normal in the culture?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Right. Although I didn't say it changed all cultural norms.
MR. WEINREB: I didn't read that you did. I said, "The experience of Chechnya in the 1990s ... profoundly affected Chechen cultural norms."
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Yes.
MR. WEINREB: "For example, the cult of the elders, by which Chechans, like most North Caucasians, would routinely accept the opinions of the older males as law, declined precipitously," correct?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Yes. Inside of Chechnya, it did.
MR. WEINREB: Yeah. So "declined precipitously" meant went down?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Yes, it does mean that, but I should also point the elders -- cult of the elders, about which I did not speak this morning refers not simply to elders inside of the family but with regard to the society as a whole and to the extended clan.
MR. WEINREB: Okay. But a shorter, equally correct answer to my question would be yes. You wrote, "For example, the cult of the elders by which Chechans, like most North Caucasians, would routinely accept the opinions as law, that declined precipitously"?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Yes, but I -- there is -- I just want to make sure that you understand the context in which I --
MR. WEINREB: Well, the only question I'm asking you is whether you wrote that.
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Yes, I did.
MR. WEINREB: And you wrote that before you met the defense team here?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: I did.
MR. WEINREB: "The masculine" -- and then I'm continuing to read: The masculine ideal of the Chechen as an irrepressible warrior remained, but much of the culture that had nourished that ideal and bounded it with obligation to others had withered away," correct?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Yes, I wrote that. Yes.
MR. WEINREB: Okay. And that's true in the Tsarnaev family, isn't it?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: You're asking me to make a judgment of the Tsarnaev family, if that's --
MR. WEINREB: Well --
MICHEL REYNOLDS: -- about the family or about an individual?
MR. BRUCK: Objection. This is way beyond direct.
THE COURT: The objection is sustained to that question.
MICHEL REYNOLDS: I would say that's true about Tamerlan, yes.
BY MR. WEINREB:
MR. WEINREB: Well, let me ask you this: You talked about -- well, are you aware that -- you're aware, for example, that Anzor Tsarnaev married Zubeidat against his own father's wishes?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: No, I was not aware of that.
MR. WEINREB: Okay. You're aware that Ruslan Tsarni married an American against his father's wishes?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: I was not aware of that, no.
MR. BRUCK: This is all beyond the scope. This is not the area in which the witness has --
THE COURT: No, it's not beyond the scope, but I remind the jury that it's the answers that produce the evidence, not the questions.
BY MR. WEINREB:
MR. WEINREB: Well, let me ask you this: You talked about adat.
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Yes.
MR. WEINREB: Okay. Can you say again what adat is?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: "Adat" is a word that refers to the customary law and codes by which the people in the North Caucasus live.
MR. WEINREB: So if Ruslan Tsarni, Anzor Tsarnaev's brother, married an American against his father's wishes, that would be a violation of adat?
MR. BRUCK: Assumes facts not in evidence.
THE COURT: You may answer the question.
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Without knowing more about how that decision was made, it would be difficult for me to say if that was a violation.
BY MR. WEINREB:
MR. WEINREB: Well, if a father commands his son to marry within the ethnicity and he refuses and he does something different --
MR. BRUCK: This all assumes facts not in evidence.
MR. WEINREB: He's an expert. I'm asking him a hypothetical question.
THE COURT: Go ahead. You may have it.
BY MR. WEINREB:
MR. WEINREB: If a father commands his son not to marry someone outside of his ethnicity but he defies the father and does it anyway, that's a violation of adat?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Yes, that would be.
MR. WEINREB: And if I told you that Alvi Tsarnaev, the oldest male in the -- Anzor's -- Ruslan-Anzor generation --
MR. BRUCK: He's not telling him anything. This is not proper cross.
THE COURT: Well, right. Sustained to the form of the question.
MR. WEINREB: All right.
BY MR. WEINREB:
MR. WEINREB: If it were the case that Alvi Tsarni was the oldest male in the generation that Anzor belonged to, and he abdicated his leadership of the family to somebody else, that would be a violation of Chechen tradition?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: If he abdicated?
MR. WEINREB: Yes, if he, instead of exercising leadership, let a younger brother exercise leadership, that would not be the normal course of the Chechan --
MICHEL REYNOLDS: No. Again, one would need to know the context in which the decision to abdicate was made.
MR. WEINREB: Are you aware that Tamerlan Tsarnaev married Katherine Russell, a Christian, initially against his parents' wishes?
MR. BRUCK: Objection.
MR. WEINREB: He said that he --
BY MR. WEINREB:
MR. WEINREB: Did you say that you had read --
THE COURT: Yes, again, to the form of the question.
BY MR. WEINREB:
MR. WEINREB: Did you say you had read police reports about this case?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Yes.
MR. WEINREB: And you had researched it extensively online?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Yes.
MR. WEINREB: And that you had looked at the computers of the defendant and his brother?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Yes.
MR. WEINREB: So you know something about Tamerlan and Dzhokhar Tsarnaev and his family?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: I do.
MR. WEINREB: Did you know that Tamerlan Tsarnaev married Katherine Russell, a Christian, against his father's wishes?
MR. BRUCK: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. WEINREB:
MR. WEINREB: If I told you that --
MR. BRUCK: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. WEINREB:
MR. WEINREB: If it were the case that Tamerlan Tsarnaev married a Christian girl against his father's wishes, would that be a violation of adat?
MR. BRUCK: Same objection.
THE COURT: Overruled.
You may answer that.
MICHEL REYNOLDS: That would not be in conformity with adat, correct, although I should point out that sort of -- marriages are not unheard of.
And, you know, adat is not --
BY MR. WEINREB:
MR. WEINREB: There's no question on the table at this point, sir.
MR. BRUCK: If the witness may finish his answer.
THE COURT: I think it was finished.
BY MR. WEINREB:
MR. WEINREB: Traditionally, I think you said earlier that if a man has children, he's the decision-maker in the family?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Correct.
MR. WEINREB: If he dies or disappears, then a male in his generation, typically the oldest brother, would normally become the decision-maker in his family?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Normally, correct, yes.
MR. WEINREB: Are you aware that Anzor Tsarnaev had two brothers living in the United States when he moved back to Russia in 2012?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: I knew he had one brother.
MR. WEINREB: He had one brother named Ruslan Tsarni?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Yes.
MR. WEINREB: And he had another brother named Alvi Tsarni? Is that a yes?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Well, I knew he had one brother for certain. I didn't know for certain that he had two brothers.
MR. WEINREB: Would it be a violation of adat for a younger brother to smoke cigarettes if his older brother had admonished him not to?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Again, a lot of that would depend upon the context, but that would not -- no, that would not be in conformity with the idea of adat, correct. But adat is not a -- it's a term that refers to customary law, unwritten laws, codes of behavior, so it would be a misinterpretation of adat to assume it operates as either a formal written code or something like a computer program.
MR. WEINREB: Would it be a violation of the code that a younger brother should obey his older brother if he disobeyed the older brother by smoking cigarettes when his older brother told him not to?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: That would -- well, again, I would have to -- that would not be in conformity with adat, correct. Yeah.
MR. WEINREB: Would it be a violation of the custom that a younger brother is supposed to obey his older brother if his older brother admonished him not to smoke pot but he defied his older brother and did it anyway?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Yes.
MR. WEINREB: Would it be a violation of the code that a younger brother is supposed to obey his older brother if his older brother told the younger brother not to sell pot but he did it anyway?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Yes.
MR. BRUCK: Objection to the question. Assumes facts not in evidence, your Honor. We object.
THE COURT: You may have the question.
MR. WEINREB: And I have the answer.
BY MR. WEINREB:
MR. WEINREB: Would it be a violation of the code that a younger brother should obey his older brother if his older brother admonished him not to drink alcohol, but as soon as he was out of his older brother's sight he drank all the alcohol he wanted?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Well, he's out of his older brother's sight, and there are different levels of infractions of -- maybe "infractions" are not quite the right word. That implies more of a system of regularized law. But these examples are all arguably quite -- relatively minor things, but...
MR. WEINREB: So you don't really have to obey your older -- well, you said before that even marriage was a minor thing?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: No, I wouldn't -- marriage is more -- obviously more substantial than would be drinking alcohol when your brother's not around.
MR. WEINREB: Okay. So it's important to obey the elder in the family when you're around them, but when you're on your own, do whatever you want?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: No, I wouldn't say "do whatever you want." That wouldn't be the right thing once you do, but one would expect more of that sort of --
MR. WEINREB: But if, in fact, a younger brother did exactly what he wanted except when he was in his older brother's sight, that would not be in conformity with the principle that you --
MR. BRUCK: Objection to the premise of that, the assumption that --
THE COURT: No, overruled.
BY MR. WEINREB:
MR. WEINREB: If, in fact, a younger brother did whatever he wanted when he wasn't in the sight of his older brother, that would not be in conformity with the principle that you obey your older brother?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Correct, although use of the term "whatever" is -- I find somewhat problematic.
MR. WEINREB: You wrote in your article -- and I'm sorry. I skipped ahead. So if you want to see it, I'd have to move back a little bit. You wrote, "Tamerlan and Dzhokhar Tsarnaev were hardly typical of Chechens, and one might justifiably question whether they can even properly be described as Chechen." And then you explained their mother, Zubeidat, was an ethnic Avar; both brothers were born outside of Chechnya; both brothers grew up outside of Chechnya; and both brothers spent little or no time in Chechnya.
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Correct. That's what I wrote.
MR. WEINREB: And then you also wrote a little later --
MICHEL REYNOLDS: But if I could say, though --
MR. WEINREB: No, that's the question, sir. You'll have a chance to be questioned by your own lawyer again in a minute.
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Okay.
MR. BRUCK: We would like the witness to be able to explain the answer.
THE COURT: You can ask him on redirect.
BY MR. WEINREB:
MR. WEINREB: You wrote in your article, "After violent extremists hijacked the Chechen national movement, some Chechens rejected violent extremism." Is that correct?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: That is correct.
MR. WEINREB: So seeing -- and part of that was because when the violent extremists hijacked the Chechen nationalists' movement, they were really extreme?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Yes, they were.
MR. WEINREB: Okay. And that was really a turnoff for a lot of Chechens?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: For many, yes.
MR. WEINREB: So seeing Chechen extremists' propaganda online, that could push you either way, towards jihad or against it?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: No. Watching the propaganda online wouldn't -- I mean, the purpose of the propaganda is to make one more attracted to the cause and --
MR. WEINREB: That's the purpose of it.
MICHEL REYNOLDS: And then -- and it works that way among non-Muslims as well. There are many supporters of the Chechen cause who look with great sympathy upon the Kavkaz Center who are not Muslims.
MR. WEINREB: So you're saying that it's your professional opinion that no one ever looks at this online propaganda and is turned off by it?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: No, but the majority -- well, many people who do look at it find it -- it makes them more sympathetic to the cause, which is the purpose of --
MR. WEINREB: My question was a different question.
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Right.
MR. WEINREB: Is it your professional opinion that no one who looks at it is turned off by it and goes the other way?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: I don't know if that's my professional opinion. I don't know if my profession gives me any --
MR. WEINREB: Well, you're the expert, correct? That's why you're here.
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Right. So is the question, then, if -- can I say there's a uniform reaction among all people who look at these websites? Is that what the --
MR. WEINREB: Well, the question specifically was: Can you say that nobody who looks at these websites, no one of Chechen origin who looks at these websites, is turned off by it and says, "You know what? This is too extreme"?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: I'm sure there are Chechens who look at them and would say "This is too extreme," yes.
MR. WEINREB: Whether you are attracted to it or whether you're repelled by it, that depends in part on what kind of person you are?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: It certainly would depend on a great deal of factors, including what kind of person you are.
MR. WEINREB: You also wrote in your article, "The Tsarnaevs made" -- and here I'm quoting: (As read:) The Tsarnaevs made a choice to embrace a radical and militant version of Islam and to carry out bombings and attack the police, correct?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Yes, I wrote -- and I wrote that, and this is when, 2013?
MR. WEINREB: Right. And ultimately, it was the Tsarnaevs' choice to embrace a radical and militant version of Islam and to carry out bombings and attack the police?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: That is no longer my belief currently.
MR. WEINREB: So back before you met the defense and before you learned what they're trying to prove in this case --
MICHEL REYNOLDS: No, that's before I reviewed the evidence in this case.
MR. WEINREB: But it's also before you met the defense, correct?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: I don't recall -- I mean, when I wrote this was, yes, before I met -- before I had access to all the evidence in the case.
MR. WEINREB: I understand that's what you want to tell us, but here's my question. Before you met the --
MICHEL REYNOLDS: No, I'm telling you what I believe. I'm under oath to tell you what I -- to tell the truth.
MR. WEINREB: You're under oath to answer the questions, and here is the question.
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Yes.
MR. WEINREB: This is before you met the defense?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: This was before, right.
MR. WEINREB: Right. And it's before they told you what they're trying to accomplish in this part of the case?
MR. BRUCK: Objection.
THE COURT: You may answer it.
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Yes.
MR. WEINREB: I have no further questions.
THE COURT: Mr. Bruck?
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. BRUCK:
MR. BRUCK: Mr. Weinreb's examination reminded me of a loose end which is -- it was brought up yesterday that -- or the last couple of days that Mr. Tsarnaev registered something online under the name "Tsarni." What is the difference between the word -- the name "Tsarni" --
MR. WEINREB: Objection, your Honor. Beyond the scope of --
THE COURT: No, overruled.
Go ahead.
BY MR. BRUCK:
MR. BRUCK: -- between the name "Tsarni" and the name "Tsarnaev"?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: The "Tsarnaev" is a Russified version of "Tsarni."
MR. BRUCK: Russified?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Yes.
MR. BRUCK: It's the Russian-language version of the actual Chechen name, which is "Tsarni"?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Yes, that's my understanding.
MR. BRUCK: So "Tsarni" is not an alias for "Tsarnaev," correct?
MR. BRUCK: Okay. And Mr. Weinreb asked you a series of questions about adat and culture. Was it your -- the purpose of your testimony to try to establish that broad patterns of culture dictate the actions of every single person in every single family at all times if the person is, in fact, a member of that culture?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: No, I mean, neither I nor any serious scholar would ever argue that a culture dictates the actions of each and every member of that culture, but one can identify broad patterns of behavior that have been replicated over time, over generations. In the case of the Chechens, this is a culture that's been in formation for thousands of years, and one does know this -- and this is testified by anthropologists, by scholars who have published things -- I have witnessed it in my own personal interactions with peoples from the North Caucasus -- that there is a distinct culture that does continue to exist until this day that marks them out very distinctively from other peoples of the former Soviet Union, from Russia, from the rest of the world, and this -- so no, not every single person, obviously, representative of a culture displays all the same behaviors and patterns of behavior, but one can identify general patterns.
MR. BRUCK: And do these general patterns tend to have greater effect in matters of grave significance as opposed to relatively trivial matters?
MR. WEINREB: Objection, your Honor. Is this in general or with respect to Chechens?
THE COURT: The witness can answer it if he understands the question.
MICHEL REYNOLDS: I think that would -- I would say this: It sort of matters -- sort of a -- daily habits that are repeated tend to be stronger than those that are on much more rare occasions. So the sorts of behavioral patterns that one is imbued with or inculcated with from a young age, for example, will tend to be more enduring and more powerful.
BY MR. BRUCK:
MR. BRUCK: The patterns of behavior of a younger brother towards an older brother, for example?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: That would be a good example of that, yes.
MR. BRUCK: All right. The -- Mr. Weinreb asked you about a statement from your article about whether the defendants might even be properly described as Chechen.
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Right. I did not -- I should point out I did not write they're -- I said that one might raise those questions.
MR. BRUCK: Right.
MICHEL REYNOLDS: And then I proceeded to answer it in the following paragraph, to answer those questions by saying that, nonetheless, it's very clear that Chechen identity and Chechen culture do play a role.
MR. BRUCK: And that, in fact, these brothers do identify as Chechen?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Yes, absolutely.
MR. BRUCK: Or did. And the fact that their mother was Avar, you have testified that patterns -- familial relationships and relationships between brothers are very similar in Avar culture as in Chechen culture.
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Yes, the family patterns are one that one finds across most of the mountain peoples, or all of the mountain peoples of the North Caucasus: Avars, Chechens, Dargins, Lezgians. I could go on.
MR. BRUCK: And can you characterize Chechen culture as one that is particularly hearty or particularly inclined to assimilate when people go to other parts of the world?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Well, we know very clearly that it is a very strong identity and one that does not assimilate easily. There are -- I mentioned this briefly this morning. After the Russian conquest of the nineteenth century, many Chechens left Chechnya and were resettled in what, today, we now speak of as the Middle East, Jordan and Syria in particular. Those communities have maintained their language and their identity. They have not intermarried with the Arabs. Likewise, we know that the Chechens, in living in Kyrgyzstan and Kazakhstan, also maintain their identities and very much their family practices as well.
MR. BRUCK: In fact, let me just ask you about something as far as -- responsive to this question of being born outside Chechnya. Are you aware that there was an FBI -- you said that Chechen is a language that's unrelated to any other, or at least any other major language.
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Yes.
MR. BRUCK: It's a rare language?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Yes, it's --
MR. BRUCK: Hard to learn?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Yes.
MR. BRUCK: If you knew that there was an FBI translator who has testified in this case who speaks Chechen whose name is Shishani from Jordan --
MR. WEINREB: Your Honor, this is way beyond the scope of the cross-examination.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. BRUCK:
MR. BRUCK: You say there is still a Chechen-speaking community in Jordan?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Yes, they're both in Jordan and in Syria.
MR. BRUCK: And that's 175 years after they arrived?
MR. WEINREB: Objection to the leading nature of the questions.
THE COURT: You may answer it.
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Yes, correct.
BY MR. BRUCK:
MR. BRUCK: And what is the Arabic word for Chechen?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Shishani.
MR. BRUCK: Shishani. Thank you. When you wrote that many Chechens reject the violent extremism of the jihadi movement during the Chechen wars, were you talking about Chechens in Chechnya?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Correct, I was discussing the Chechens inside of Chechnya.
MR. BRUCK: Okay. And Chechens in Chechnya could see with their own eyes what was --
MR. WEINREB: Objection to the leading nature of the question.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. BRUCK:
MR. BRUCK: Is there a difference between perceiving the engagement of jihadism in Chechnya on the ground as opposed to experiencing it online?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Yes, there is. And I've read testimony to that effect regarding Tamerlan Tsarnaev, in particular. This is one of the things that Magomed Kartashov emphasized, that Tamerlan clearly didn't know what was going on.
MR. WEINREB: Objection, your Honor. I don't think that's appropriate to be challenging.
THE COURT: No, I think it's responsive to the question.
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Emphasized that Tamerlan's impression of what was taking place in Dagestan and North Caucus and Chechnya was derived from watching a lot of videos on KavkazCenter.com. And as he said, Tamerlan's desire to go to the forest, which is a euphemism to mean to join the jihad, he said, "If you continue this way," he said, "You're not going to make it to the next tree."
MR. BRUCK: Thank you. That's all.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. WEINREB:
MR. WEINREB: You said that the pattern of older brother/younger brother relationship is a -- sort of a hardy one that tends to survive transporting from -- or transplanting from one place to another?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Yes. I mean, it's a very strong tradition and practice.
MR. WEINREB: But that -- but to say that the pattern of it survives in a family, that presumes that that pattern was there in the first place?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Yes, although, I mean, there are -- oftentimes -- people's -- in terms of a culture, for example, if a parent doesn't do something but the grandparents did, there are definitely -- cultures are passed down not simply from parent to children, also grandparents can play a role. Traditions can be revived as well, practices.
MR. WEINREB: Okay. I'm not sure that I understood the answer, so let me ask the question again.
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Okay.
MR. WEINREB: You said the pattern that exists can survive transplantation from one country to another.
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Yes, it can survive, yes.
MR. WEINREB: But for a pattern to survive, the pattern has to exist in the first place?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Well, by definition.
MR. WEINREB: So if it were the case that, for example, Bella and Ailina Tsarnaev stated there was never a pattern in their family of anyone being a leader, would this --
MR. BRUCK: Objection. Objection to this.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. WEINREB: There's a good-faith basis.
THE COURT: No, it's beyond the scope of the redirect.
BY MR. WEINREB:
MR. WEINREB: So if it were a particular -- if, in a particular family, there was no pattern and the family moved from one place to another, then there would be no pattern to survive?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: If there is no pattern to begin with, there would be no pattern at the end, yes.
MR. WEINREB: And there are some families in which there is no pattern of older brother/younger brother --
MICHEL REYNOLDS: Pattern of -- pattern in general or -- I was speaking --
MR. BRUCK: Objection.
THE COURT: No, you may answer in general.
BY MR. WEINREB:
MR. WEINREB: No pattern of male -- oldest-male leadership.
MICHEL REYNOLDS: The question? If you --
MR. WEINREB: There are some immigrant Chechen families in which, in that particular family, there are no -- there is no entrenched pattern of older-male leadership?
MICHEL REYNOLDS: There may be such families.
MR. WEINREB: That's all.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you, Professor. You may step down.
(The witness is excused.)
MR. WATKINS: Henry Alvarez.