4.Sam Lipson — Direct/Cross/Redirect (Part 2)
188 linesSAM LIPSON, resumed
CONTINUED DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. CONRAD:
MS. CONRAD: Good morning, Mr. Lipson.
SAM LIPSON: Good morning.
MS. CONRAD: Mr. Lipson, yesterday in testimony you mentioned that one of the daughters got married in Almaty. Can you tell us where Almaty is?
SAM LIPSON: In Kazakhstan.
MS. CONRAD: And I also just want to show you just a couple of photographs.
MS. CONRAD: If I could just have the podium laptop connected up just for the witness. This is Exhibit 3501-20.
MS. CONRAD: Do you recognize that photograph? I mean, do you recognize what's depicted in that photograph?
SAM LIPSON: Yes, I do.
MS. CONRAD: And who do you see in that photograph?
SAM LIPSON: I see Jahar and Tamerlan.
MS. CONRAD: I'd offer this exhibit.
MS. PELLEGRINI: Objection, your Honor. The government received no notice of this photograph with this witness.
MS. CONRAD: It was actually -- well, with this witness, it was indeed provided.
THE COURT: I'll allow it.
MS. CONRAD: Thank you.
THE COURT: What's the number again?
MS. CONRAD: 3501-20.
(Defense Exhibit No. 3501-20 received into evidence.)
BY MS. CONRAD:
MS. CONRAD: And can you tell us who you see in this photograph?
SAM LIPSON: Yes, I see Jahar and Tamerlan Tsarnaev.
MS. CONRAD: And who is who?
SAM LIPSON: Jahar is on the left; Tamerlan on the right.
MS. CONRAD: And can you tell us from this photograph where that photograph appears to have been taken?
SAM LIPSON: Yeah, that bench is very familiar. It's one of the benches outside the front of my mother's building.
MS. CONRAD: That's the building at 410 Norfolk in Cambridge?
SAM LIPSON: That's right.
MS. CONRAD: And can you tell from this photograph about how old Jahar was at that time?
SAM LIPSON: He looks about nine to me.
MS. CONRAD: Do you know what the age difference was between Jahar and Tamerlan?
SAM LIPSON: Only approximately six years, something like that.
MS. CONRAD: But Tamerlan looks a bit older than --
SAM LIPSON: Yes.
MS. PELLEGRINI: Objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Yeah, sustained to that.
MS. CONRAD: Well, that's what -- well, strike that.
BY MS. CONRAD:
MS. CONRAD: That's what they looked like around the time you knew them living on Norfolk?
SAM LIPSON: Yes.
MS. CONRAD: Including their relative size?
SAM LIPSON: Yes.
MS. CONRAD: And I would like to show you Exhibit 3433.
MS. CONRAD: Again, just for the witness.
MS. CONRAD: And do you recognize anyone in that picture?
SAM LIPSON: Yes.
MS. CONRAD: And who do you recognize?
SAM LIPSON: I recognize Bella, Ailina, Zubeida, Jahar, and that's my mother, Joanna, as well.
MS. CONRAD: I would offer this exhibit as well, your Honor.
MS. PELLEGRINI: No objection.
THE COURT: All right.
(Defense Exhibit No. 3343 received into evidence.)
BY MS. CONRAD:
MS. CONRAD: So if you could just start from the left and tell us who the little boy in the left-hand corner of that photograph is.
SAM LIPSON: That's Jahar.
MS. CONRAD: And who is that immediately to his left holding the wine glass, seated?
SAM LIPSON: Zubeida.
MS. CONRAD: And is that what she looked like in the early years at 410 Norfolk?
SAM LIPSON: Yes. She's a little dressed up here. A special occasion, I guess.
MS. CONRAD: And she appears to be drinking wine?
SAM LIPSON: Uh-huh.
MS. CONRAD: And who is that behind her holding a wineglass as well?
SAM LIPSON: That's Bella.
MS. CONRAD: And can you put your finger on Bella for us, please? Actually, let me clear this first. Let's try this again. And who is that seated to the left of Zubeida and in front of Bella?
SAM LIPSON: That's Joanna. That's my mother.
MS. CONRAD: And who is that sort of reclining on the back of the couch?
SAM LIPSON: Ailina.
MS. CONRAD: Can you just put your finger on Ailina so we can see that?
SAM LIPSON: (Witness complies.)
MS. CONRAD: And is that what they looked like -- maybe I already asked this. Is that what they looked like during the early years at 410 Norfolk?
SAM LIPSON: Yes, it's familiar.
MS. CONRAD: I have nothing further of this witness at this time.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. PELLEGRINI:
MS. PELLEGRINI: Good morning, Mr. Lipson.
SAM LIPSON: Good morning.
MS. PELLEGRINI: Mr. Lipson, perhaps I missed it yesterday. You work in Cambridge. Is that right?
SAM LIPSON: I do.
MS. PELLEGRINI: And 410 Norfolk Street is where your mother's building is located, correct, her apartment?
SAM LIPSON: That's right.
MS. PELLEGRINI: And she lives on the lower floor. Do I understand that correctly?
SAM LIPSON: Uh-huh.
MS. PELLEGRINI: You have to say "yes" or "no."
SAM LIPSON: Yes.
MS. PELLEGRINI: All right. And, Mr. Lipson, let me see if I've got this right: So you met the Tsarnaev family around 2002?
SAM LIPSON: That's about right, yeah.
MS. PELLEGRINI: Okay. And at the time that you met Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, the defendant, when was that?
SAM LIPSON: It was a little after I met his parents. He didn't come with them initially. Within a year, I believe, of having met them.
MS. PELLEGRINI: So would it be fair to say about approximately a decade or so that you've known who they are?
SAM LIPSON: Yeah.
MS. PELLEGRINI: All right. And during that time, wouldn't it be fair to say that the number of times that you saw Dzhokhar Tsarnaev and Tamerlan Tsarnaev would be about ten?
SAM LIPSON: Yeah, in that order. In that magnitude in general.
MS. PELLEGRINI: In general?
SAM LIPSON: Much more so in the first few years.
MS. PELLEGRINI: So when they were both younger, correct?
SAM LIPSON: Yeah.
MS. PELLEGRINI: All right. Now, yesterday when Ms. Conrad asked you to describe Tamerlan Tsarnaev, you said that when you first met him, he was more mature. Can I ask you: More mature than what?
SAM LIPSON: Well, at the time, we were discussing both brothers, and so I was describing -- I think they had asked me about Dzhokhar's demeanor and appearance, so that was just in contrast. It's pretty self-evident, since he is much older.
MS. PELLEGRINI: I was going to say, he's much older. You would expect him to be more mature, correct?
SAM LIPSON: Yes.
MS. PELLEGRINI: And, in fact, when it comes to personalities, you described Anzor and Zubeidat as having different personalities, correct?
SAM LIPSON: Yes.
MS. PELLEGRINI: Anzor was kind of gruff?
SAM LIPSON: Few words. Gruff? No, I would say he was quiet.
MS. PELLEGRINI: Quiet. All right. And Zubeidat was more talkative?
SAM LIPSON: Yes.
MS. PELLEGRINI: All right. Two different personalities?
SAM LIPSON: Yes.
MS. PELLEGRINI: Both in the same family?
SAM LIPSON: Yes.
MS. PELLEGRINI: All right. And you indicated that your relationship with the members of the family, if I'm correct, sort of went in a progression of your contact with them; that is, you had more contact with Anzor over the course of the decade. Is that correct?
SAM LIPSON: That is correct.
MS. PELLEGRINI: And you had less contact with Zubeidat, correct?
SAM LIPSON: Yes.
MS. PELLEGRINI: And with respect to both of the parents, you didn't have the kind of relationship that you could ask them personal questions, did you?
SAM LIPSON: I believe I could have asked them personal questions.
MS. PELLEGRINI: But you didn't?
SAM LIPSON: I didn't.
MS. PELLEGRINI: And so you don't have any information about personal problems?
SAM LIPSON: Well, as I had discussed yesterday, Anzor's health was a topic that I did discuss with him in brief.
MS. PELLEGRINI: So over the course of ten years, his -- if I understand you correctly, his demeanor changed, correct?
SAM LIPSON: Yes.
MS. PELLEGRINI: And his health changed, correct?
SAM LIPSON: It appeared to.
MS. PELLEGRINI: And so do you know anybody who doesn't change over the course of ten years?
MS. CONRAD: Objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MS. PELLEGRINI:
MS. PELLEGRINI: And you also indicated that Zubeidat changed, correct?
SAM LIPSON: Correct.
MS. PELLEGRINI: All right. And with respect to wearing a head scarf -- now, you've seen other women who practice in that faith who wear head scarves, correct?
SAM LIPSON: Yes.
MS. PELLEGRINI: And do you know that, in fact, it's worn as a sign of modesty and privacy?
SAM LIPSON: It can be.
MS. PELLEGRINI: It can be. And with respect to Tamerlan and Dzhokhar, as you sit here today, you can't tell this jury anything, can you, about their relationship?
SAM LIPSON: With who?
MS. PELLEGRINI: With each other.
SAM LIPSON: I don't think I could.
MS. PELLEGRINI: And, in fact, with respect to those photographs that Ms. Conrad just showed you, did you select those photographs? Are those from your personal collection?
SAM LIPSON: No.
MS. PELLEGRINI: Who selected those for you?
SAM LIPSON: Who selected the photographs?
MS. PELLEGRINI: Yes.
SAM LIPSON: Nobody selected them. They were shown to me.
MS. PELLEGRINI: Had you seen them before today?
SAM LIPSON: One of them I think I did see, as a matter of fact.
MS. PELLEGRINI: Do you know if that was the Christmas one?
SAM LIPSON: Yes.
MS. PELLEGRINI: Because that's the one your mom's in?
SAM LIPSON: Yes.
MS. PELLEGRINI: Okay. And with respect to Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, the defendant, you indicated to Ms. Conrad -- you described him at a time when he was eight or -- yesterday, and today when you thought maybe nine in a photograph, correct?
SAM LIPSON: Yes.
MS. PELLEGRINI: But as you sit here today, again, there's nothing you can tell this jury about the person that Dzhokhar Tsarnaev is today, is there?
SAM LIPSON: Is today? I can only base it on my interactions with him when I did first meet him and in those -- especially those couple of years after.
MS. PELLEGRINI: All right. So about eight to ten?
SAM LIPSON: Eight to ten, eight to twelve, yeah.
MS. PELLEGRINI: But you didn't, for example, know what he was like when he went to high school?
SAM LIPSON: No, I didn't interact much at all.
MS. PELLEGRINI: And you didn't know what he was like when he went to college?
SAM LIPSON: Nope.
MS. PELLEGRINI: So you didn't know that he was a drug dealer when he was in college?
MS. CONRAD: Objection, your Honor. May we be heard?
THE COURT: No, you may answer that.
SAM LIPSON: No, I didn't.
MS. PELLEGRINI: Thank you. I have no further questions.
MS. CONRAD: May I have a moment, please?
(Counsel confer off the record.)
BY MS. CONRAD:
MS. CONRAD: Mr. Lipson, first of all, you saw Jahar after he turned 12, right?
SAM LIPSON: Sure.
MS. CONRAD: And you saw him around your mother's building?
SAM LIPSON: Uh-huh.
MS. CONRAD: And Ms. Pellegrini asked you -- you don't have any information about the family's personal problems, but, in fact, you do have information about their personal problems?
MS. PELLEGRINI: Objection, your Honor. That's actually not the question the government asked.
THE COURT: The objection is sustained.
BY MS. CONRAD:
MS. CONRAD: You didn't ask them about their personal problems, right?
SAM LIPSON: As I had said earlier, in talking with Anzor, I did discuss his health from time to time, especially if he appeared uncomfortable. And with Zubeida, there were more general discussions of difficulty finding work. And in the case of that alternate housing, they had trouble finding a place that was a good fit. So I did have that kind of discussion, yeah.
MS. CONRAD: And you also had -- just yes or no -- had another source of information about --
MS. PELLEGRINI: Objection.
BY MS. CONRAD:
MS. CONRAD: -- family problems?
THE COURT: Sustained.
MS. CONRAD: Nothing further.
Can we be heard briefly?
THE COURT: No, that's enough.
Thank you, Mr. Lipson. You may step down.
(The witness is excused.)
MS. CONRAD: The defense calls Sonya Petri, or re-calls Sonya Petri.
THE COURT: Let me see you on a few matters that were suspended.